Weapon Loadouts and the A-A missiles

[Zakatak]

Pretty simple question. What are some weapon loadouts I can expect to be using in the MiG-21 and for what type of missions will they be used for?

 

And another one, how do the available air-to-air missiles stack up? As far as I can tell, the R-60M is the most capable by a significant margin in all areas except warhead power. It's faster, more maneuverable, has the lowest minimum launch range, a 40 degree boresight, some limited all-aspect capability, is the lightest, and can be carried on twin launchers. According to this, it can also carry the RS-2US, R-3S, R-3P, R-5S, and R-13M. What incentive is there to use these over the R-60M?

[WinterH]

I believe that R-13M has a better kinematic range, and may be has a larger warhead, but this kinematic range won't mean much, if at all, since it is rear aspect only. In other parameters, R-60 is better like you have said.

 

What I wonder is, how will the SARH R-3R stack up. It will be dependent on Mig's radar, which should be tricky, and it's a version of early R-3, not the R-13, so less kinematic range and maneurability, but still it's mig's only chance at a "slightly longish range all aspect" missile. I don't have too high hopes on it's performance but hey, may be it'll be interesting :)

 

For R-3S, I see a good use, since it is pretty much the same thing as AIM-9B, it can be provided as only available missle to MiG-21 on some F-86 vs MiG-21 servers to make the fight more interesting.

 

For beam riding RS-2US, only use I forsee is occational "let's see how does this thing work" venture in mission editor, most likely against hapless cargo planes since I'm not sure if it would be possible to hit anything else with that :)

 

I wonder how big an impact will heavy A-A loadouts will have on MiG-21Bis performance. For example 4 x R-60 + 2 x R-3 or R-13 missiles or if it's possible to have twin R-60 rails on both pylons. Mig is relatively small, single engine fighter, so may be even these can have an impact with drag & weight.

 

Depending on how useful R-13 and R-3R prove to be, my favorite A-A loadout may be 4x R-60 + 2 x one of the former missiles. Or may be if the mig proves to be sensitive to additional drag & weight even from A-A missiles, it may be 4 x R-60 mounted on single racks.

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, unless Dolphin wants to enlighten us :)

[Zakatak]

I believe that R-13M has a better kinematic range, and may be has a larger warhead, but this kinematic range won't mean much, if at all, since it is rear aspect only. In other parameters, R-60 is better like you have said.

 

What I wonder is, how will the SARH R-3R stack up. It will be dependent on Mig's radar, which should be tricky, and it's a version of early R-3, not the R-13, so less kinematic range and maneurability, but still it's mig's only chance at a "slightly longish range all aspect" missile. I don't have too high hopes on it's performance but hey, may be it'll be interesting :)

 

For R-3S, I see a good use, since it is pretty much the same thing as AIM-9B, it can be provided as only available missle to MiG-21 on some F-86 vs MiG-21 servers to make the fight more interesting.

 

For beam riding RS-2US, only use I forsee is occational "let's see how does this thing work" venture in mission editor, most likely against hapless cargo planes since I'm not sure if it would be possible to hit anything else with that :)

 

I wonder how big an impact will heavy A-A loadouts will have on MiG-21Bis performance. For example 4 x R-60 + 2 x R-3 or R-13 missiles or if it's possible to have twin R-60 rails on both pylons. Mig is relatively small, single engine fighter, so may be even these can have an impact with drag & weight.

 

Depending on how useful R-13 and R-3R prove to be, my favorite A-A loadout may be 4x R-60 + 2 x one of the former missiles. Or may be if the mig proves to be sensitive to additional drag & weight even from A-A missiles, it may be 4 x R-60 mounted on single racks.

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, unless Dolphin wants to enlighten us :)

 

Is it just the original R-60 that is available? I know there is the significantly improved R-60M which is already in the game for the Frogfoots, as well as the radar-fused R-60KM. Not sure if this MiG can mount them however.

 

So as far as I can tell:

> R-13M if I want to reach out a bit further and I'm confident I can get behind my target

> R-3S if I want to deliberately handicap myself to take on weaker opponents without stomping them

> R-3R if you want the all aspect ability that radar-guided missiles offer

> RS-2U if I want to take out bigger, less maneuverable targets like cargo planes with a larger warhead

> R-60 for everything else

Edited June 8, 2014 by Zakatak

[GaryIKILLYOU]

It's obvious the MiG-21 is going to have to be used in a shoot and scoot manner, however considering the level of countermeasures these planes carry your best bet is going to be the R-60. Of all the missiles available for the Bis the R-60 has the best ECCM systems and honestly unless you get the jump on someone and quickly fire a couple of them and get out of dodge I feel you won't survive in the modern setting against 4th generation fast movers.

 

My goal is honestly to just make A-10A/C pilots day rough. Maybe with a lot of high altitude top cover come in low and pounce on BluFor stragglers more focused on BVR but otherwise I don't see the MiG-21 being all that effective unless they have the numbers advantage.

[Ktulu2]

I read that some mig-21 can carry normal missiles (R-77, R-27 and R-73), wich could be intersting to simulate some missions in the '80s. I doubt this will be devellop, but can anyone confirm it?

edit : wiki link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21#Specifications_.28MiG-21-93.29

[WinterH]

Mig-21 Weaponry capability discussion

 

I think some discussion in this thread might be the best thing to do and keep ourselves busy about MiG while waiting for it. I think it's better to speculate about weapons and aircraft itself, that about release dates :D

 

Anyone has some info or links regarding AA-2 Atoll variants and their capabilities? It seems damn hard to come by, while for Sidewinder one can find quite some info on anything from Sidewinder I all the way to prospective AIM-9X blocks :)

 

I would really love to do some reading on all the Atoll variants and their abilities like minimum and maximum ranges, seeker agility & sensitivity compared to contemporary Sidewinders, missile speed, agility, warhead potency etc.

 

It seems R-3S would be very-very limited indeed, with very low seeker agility, very low missile agility, ~1km minimum range, 2-3 km maximum range, and a very weak warhead, and flies only a pure chase intercept course.

 

I think any future AIM-9B armed F-86 vs only R-3S armed MiG-21 dogfigts in DCS would, about %80 of times, turn to gunfights :) Clearly, R-3S would be utterly useless for any other scenario with all these limitations. To me, it looks like hitting even A-10 or Su-25 variants with one would require very specific conditions and even then could be considered a miracle :D.

 

I wonder if R-3R suffer from same minimum range as R-3S, and if it's SARH seeker any more agile than IR seeker in tracking rate. I also wonder how much better R-13M is in comparison to these. If it's slightly worse than in game AIM-9P, it may be quite servicable but certainly not the stellar performer :P.

 

I also wonder if R-3R and R-13M can fly lead pursuit courses toward target, or are they pure pursuit only too like R-3S. I've also read R-13M has better seeker performance and ECCM, but I wonder how much better, what version of AIM-9 would it be comparable to etc.

 

Since thread is "Weapon loadouts", I also feel free to discuss A-G options here, since I see myself trying it a lot in MiG.

 

I wonder what would our sighting & impact point calculation options be for gun, rockets and bombs, if we have any :D

 

From what I understand, radar is used as a rangefinder for A-G operations in fixed beam mode. I wonder if it will provide something like a CCIP pipper, even if very primitive and limited. I don't expect there to be any CCRP options, but would be pleasantly surprised if we find it in MiG :)

 

So as far as I can tell:

> R-13M if I want to reach out a bit further and I'm confident I can get behind my target

Well a tail-chase shot at a receding and manevourable fast moving aircraft wouldn't really reach out much either anyway, but if it has a larger warhead than R-60M it may have some redeeming value. Also, even if we would be able to fire it from considerable distance, if the target is aware of launch, it shouldn't take them too much effort to reverse course with a high G maneuvre to both force the missile to bleed energy and likely cause rear aspect only seeker to lose the heat source to track. :)

> R-3R if you want the all aspect ability that radar-guided missiles offer

That is, if it doesn't share minimum range, flight profile and seeker agility problems of R-3S, otherwise it may be only slightly better than RS-2US, which means next to useless :)

 

Edit :

Ktulu, saw your post just after I posted mine,

No, MiG-21 Bis can't use R-27, R-77 and R-73. The upgraded version known as MiG-21 Bison or MiG-21-93 can. As far as I know only India operates them, and they will remain in service for a while longer, so I believe it's unlikely to get accurate information on them and have them simulated in DCS.

Edited June 18, 2014 by WinterH

[lmp]

I'm pretty sure the RP-22 can't track target head on, so that would rule out all aspect engagements with the R-3R/RS-2US.

[GaryIKILLYOU]

Well that just sucks...

[ff4life4]

So basically the best all around missile that we can carry is the R-60M? There are no longer ranged radar guided missiles that are actually effective? If I'm not mistaken that R-60M has less range than the Aim-9M, that the A10C carries. That means that even the A10 is deadly to us and that it may be a challenge to shoot them down, Unless we steak in on them without using radar. But that means that, it will be almost impossible to shoot down an F15 or Su-27.

 

Is it correct that only the Mig-21Bison can shoot the R-77?

[Serp Supreme]

For some reason I get the feeling the MiG's air to ground sights will be something like the Su-25A's. I highly doubt it, but that's what I'm picturing, not to mention hoping for. Most likely we won't have any kind of special sight, and we'll just have to use something like the regular range screen thing usually seen on the MiG's HUD. Perhaps the laser thing will be able to give us some sort of range which we can use in collaboration with the HUD range thing (if I knew what it's called it would be very beneficial).

 

Edit: now that I've posted that, I just got the idea that it might use said HUD thing and project a line or something onto it to show us where to aim on the range line.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Serp Supreme

[ff4life4]

Well in another thread I saw that Dolphin showed screens of the kh-66 which is a beam riding radar guided air to ground missile. It seems the radar beam is boresighted to the gun sight. When using it you need to flying heading towards the target, and after firing you need to keep the cross hair directly on the target as you fly down. Seems to very fairly tricky to me, as the aircraft will have to be extremely steady. One problem I see is that having to fly such a predictive path, AAA guns will chew you right up

 

 

Edit.. if I'm not mistaken I don't believe there is a laser, the radar provides the range. But I may be wrong

[Serp Supreme]

Another issue I'm seeing with the bore sight thing you just mentioned is the new weight difference. Those are heavy missiles and we've got a relatively light aircraft. There's going to be a (possibly) severe bank away from the side the missile was just fired from.

 

I feel like this is going to be one of those things I'm gonna hit maybe once in 10 tries, like I used to be with the GBU-12s before I figured out how to use them :D

[ff4life4]

Well dolphin did mention the asymmetric load issue as well. Not sure exactly what that entails toward use of the weapon. Also, even if I can manage to hit an object, I have no idea what kind of warhead it is. I doubt it could destroy tanks or anything. It's almost as if your better firing off a volley of unguided rockets.

 

I really see it as useful as the mi8 is for ground attack. Except that you can run like hell if needed

[Sceptre]

no R-33?

[ff4life4]

I don't believe it's possible to have r-33s. Maybe Cobra could give us some insight on all this stuff :)

[Ktulu2]

I HIGLY doubt i'll have r33s when you have a 30 kms radar XD (not sure about the radar)

[Cobra847]

Well in another thread I saw that Dolphin showed screens of the kh-66 which is a beam riding radar guided air to ground missile. It seems the radar beam is boresighted to the gun sight. When using it you need to flying heading towards the target, and after firing you need to keep the cross hair directly on the target as you fly down. Seems to very fairly tricky to me, as the aircraft will have to be extremely steady. One problem I see is that having to fly such a predictive path, AAA guns will chew you right up

 

 

Edit.. if I'm not mistaken I don't believe there is a laser, the radar provides the range. But I may be wrong

 

Another issue I'm seeing with the bore sight thing you just mentioned is the new weight difference. Those are heavy missiles and we've got a relatively light aircraft. There's going to be a (possibly) severe bank away from the side the missile was just fired from.

 

I feel like this is going to be one of those things I'm gonna hit maybe once in 10 tries, like I used to be with the GBU-12s before I figured out how to use them :D

 

The KH-66 is actually a bit easier than expected to keep on target. It also has a few different firing modes, you'll see those in the video I'll prepare for it.

 

Asymmetric load is a big issue in the MiG-21, especially the heavier/bigger ordinance you're using. It doesn't make the aircraft uncontrollable, but it still requires a lot of compensation.

 

no R-33?

 

Correct.

 

[Ktulu2]

wow thats a lot of toys to play with :D

[ff4life4]

Thank you for the response Cobra. Really appreciate it. I hope the manual explains the missiles lol, just seems to be a lot of variants!

 

I just hope one of the other missiles has some decent range to it. But I suspect not lol.

 

Also glad to hear that the Kh-66 isn't as bad as it sounds. Sounds like it could be fairly useful at wrecking things

[Cobra847]

Thank you for the response Cobra. Really appreciate it. I hope the manual explains the missiles lol, just seems to be a lot of variants!

 

I just hope one of the other missiles has some decent range to it. But I suspect not lol.

 

Also glad to hear that the Kh-66 isn't as bad as it sounds. Sounds like it could be fairly useful at wrecking things

 

No worries!

 

I haven't used it enough to be the ultimate authority on it; but i'd say it has fairly limited uses.

It has some significant drawbacks which certainly limit it's usefulness (size, asymmetric load, guidance).

[Zakatak]

R-55? Wat dat? Can't really find information on it, besides the fact that it's a late 60's improvement on RS-2U with SAR instead of beam-riding. How does it perform in comparison to the other missile Cobra?

 

I also can't find much on the R-13M1 except for that it has different forward fins than the R-13M. How much of an improvement is it?

[ff4life4]

Thanks. And lastly before I crawl back into my cave, do you have any comments regarding the effectiveness of different a/a missiles. I'm sure others are curious as well.

 

Thanks :)

[Sceptre]

wow can you do a screenshot of the arming interface with all the different bombs? thanks!

[Serp Supreme]

Yes, we have the R-60M :D we might actually get a chance against THREE flares now! Also I'm assuming that station 6 is JATO? And what is 7?

[spyro23]

Yes, we have the R-60M :D we might actually get a chance against THREE flares now! Also I'm assuming that station 6 is JATO? And what is 7?

Smoke generator, I guess.