SU-35 vs F-22

[Pilotasso]

To give my 2 cent.

F22 is technology from the 90's, even constantly improved, it is 90's

 

At least your being modest but still this is wrong. The prototypes were 90's technology however usually after the prototype phase there is a development program. The raptors didn't get final configuration and equipment until it entered service in 2005. Considering that other countries took 30 years to close the gap to the 4rth generation I would say the F-22 is safe from antiquity for a while yet.

[JNASova]

You don't seem to know much about anything.

 

Thanks for this.This can be seen as a major cultural and democratic progress of the "modern" world,as well as ethics and professionalism.

 

I think you are mixing religion and science.In religion, you believe it or not.In science is differnt.

[hitman]

In religion, you believe it or not.In science is differnt.

How is it different from religion? I know lots of people who take a believe it or not approach when it comes to testing theories.

[sobek]

I think you are mixing religion and science.In religion, you believe it or not.In science is differnt.

 

Careful there, i think you might want to redact that statement once you realize what science actually points to in this regard.

[GGTharos]

I don't see any science in your arguments, but I see a lot of what you want to call religion here - show me, where is your science?

 

Let's review your argument.

 

- F-22 is stealth ( ... this means that it cannot be detected by fire control sensors at a useful distance )

- F-22 can't enter a fight unnoticed because the other planes have fire control sensors that can detect it at a useful distance

 

Never mind science, your argument simply does not follow logic.

 

I think you are mixing religion and science.In religion, you believe it or not.In science is differnt.

Edited May 18, 2014 by GGTharos

[JNASova]

How is it different from religion? I know lots of people who take a believe it or not approach when it comes to testing theories.

 

For example,F 117 was Stelt technology beliver,until 1999.:)

[Basher54321]

I believe it was a magazine (AirForces Monthy, IIRC) that reported that Typhoons won 4 of 8 BFM engagements. But still, not a whole lot from American sources. Reportedly the Luftwaffe Typhoons will be returning to a Red Flag this year, so we'll see what happens.

 

 

 

A Typhoon/Rafale/F-16 etc in a clean configuration should win a 1v1 8/8 if they are allowed to use the HMS/HMCS that F-22 pilots don't have. Even if they don't they will still stuff a bad pilot in an F-22.

 

Air Force monthly (April 2010) in an interview with a French pilot also printed the F-22 was only authorised to do 1v1 BFM only with foreign countries. Also stated that F-22s wore radar enhancers (look up Luneberg lens) so civilian radar can see them etc - so BVR would be a bit pointless.

 

If that's the case it only confirms how unrealistic these exercises were............you certainly cant draw any useful conclusions from them.

[Invader ZIM]

http://www.f-117a.com/AFMissions.html

 

On June 10, 1999 NATO suspended air attacks against Yugoslavia after 78 days of bombing. Between the 8th and the 9th, the F-117As flew more than 850 sorties without one combat fatality. As a whole, NATO aircraft flew more than 34,000 sorties in the 11 week operation.

 

Seems like it paid for itself, only one F-117 became a believer in Stelt, none of the other 849 sorties belived in it, and kept with their origional faith in Stealth. :)

[Basher54321]

For example,F 117 was Stelt technology beliver,until 1999.:)

 

 

The fact you keep bringing up this irrelevant argument shows you still don't understand what Stealth is...................... :lol:

[Invader ZIM]

Does the Su-35 still use the more limited PESA radar instead of the AESA radar type? That's another big factor to consider too.

 

Like Agiel said, electro optics and IR systems aren't exactly the Russian industries strong suit. I wouldn't count on the aircraft being in the right position to look at the right spot in the sky to see where the F-22's were coming from.

[JNASova]

A Typhoon/Rafale/F-16 etc in a clean configuration should win a 1v1 8/8 if they are allowed to use the HMS/HMCS that F-22 pilots don't have. Even if they don't they will still stuff a bad pilot in an F-22.

 

Air Force monthly (April 2010) in an interview with a French pilot also printed the F-22 was only authorised to do 1v1 BFM only with foreign countries. Also stated that F-22s wore radar enhancers (look up Luneberg lens) so civilian radar can see them etc - so BVR would be a bit pointless.

 

If that's the case it only confirms how unrealistic these exercises were............you certainly cant draw any useful conclusions from them.

One conclusion you can make,from the video i posted.Dogfight F 22 vs Rafale.

Fifth generation,vector thrusted,"best plane on the world",cant shake of from his 6,fourth generation plane.:megalol:

On the end,he shot him with guns.Final shame.

[FanBoy2006.01]

For example,F 117 was Stelt technology beliver,until 1999.:)

As far as I know the F117 downed in Serbia was shot down while the operators was using an optical sight and remote control to guide the missile. Allot, if not most SAM systems in the world have similar capability.

 

But let's assume my statement is wrong and that it was detected and shot down with radar. The shoot down happened very close to the radar system (Once again as far as I know.).

 

So here's my analogy ("Borrowed" from somebody else...). When you sit in your living room watching TV you will easily spot the special forces operator walking past you, in front of your TV. But you won't see him when he is camouflaged outside and waiting for you.

 

The F22 is designed with the ambush in mind. And it has proven that it excels at that. But up close it is still a real monster to deal with.

 

The F35 is a monster as well and it will murder anything that is within it's parameters to use weapons on. But, against any thing flying today, the F22 will most likely be dictating how the fight will be fought.

[Basher54321]

One conclusion you can make,from the video i posted.Dogfight F 22 vs Rafale.

Fifth generation,vector thrusted,"best plane on the world",cant shake of from his 6,fourth generation plane.:megalol:

On the end,he shot him with guns.Final shame.

 

So why don't you try and comprehend why this is no surprise to anyone with any knowledge. it's down in writing for you. :thumbup:

[six.dof]

This topic is quite difficult, but I think at least the most will agree, that finally the pilots capability will make the difference, if the technology gap is not so big, like between F22 and Su35.

 

Some replay

 

F 117, as far I know, not in active duty anymore, have different reason, but one is for sure, detection probability gets higher, as east technology advanced.

 

Detection range , To detect a missile like Amram, I think is much more than 50nm in a combined Air defense environment, as there work more radar systems together, everything is linked over datalink, systems be smarter,. Faster.

 

I know that a HARM can be detected from a Patriot system ( shoot with safe distance in training environment ), HARM is much bigger than Amram, but this was 15 years ago.

 

S400 is according experts the best SAM system in the moment, much more capable as Patriot, I am sure they can detect an Amram 50nm ++.

 

Another thing are passive radar, comes also up in the 90's, Chinese bought it, not sure where they are today with this technology, but if they are successful, sure they will produce big qty, like the DF-21D.

 

 

F22, the production line are closed, as this system is to expensive ( I think they figure out, it is not worth the money, that's why they close the lines, otherwise the would keep the lines sleeping, for the case they need more, or they work on something better)

 

the states live since years on credit, how many J-20 can be produced from 1% of China BIP? How many T50 or Su35 they can buy for 1%BIP?

 

The reality is that the US reduce research, because of economy reasons, which leads that other country's like China, India with their strong growing economy can afford and attract all this technology company's and people, to work on their projects.

 

195 F22, what they can do, globally shared on all hotspots, How many Su35 , T50 will be out there? As this models will be also on export after a while.

 

As long there is no conflict, where the F22 have to deal with modern east Air defense environment, we will not know it can be detected or not, but fact is that a clean F22 vs. Su35 want be happen, as for sure there are modern land, sea and Airborne radar, optical and acoustic systems , which work we'll together, update the Su35 via datalink, make it difficult to keep undetected all the time.

 

I guess we will not know.

[Basher54321]

Like Agiel said, electro optics and IR systems aren't exactly the Russian industries strong suit. I wouldn't count on the aircraft being in the right position to look at the right spot in the sky to see where the F-22's were coming from.

 

 

That would be an understatement looking at their technology sectors.

 

The Su-35 is a modernised Su-27 - a better comparison would be the FA-18E - except the SH probably has a superior avionics fit.

[hitman]

For example,F 117 was Stelt technology beliver,until 1999.:)

You might want to recheck your dates. F-117 was possibly used in Grenada, and used in Panama in 1989.

Edited May 18, 2014 by hitman

[Invader ZIM]

That would be an understatement looking at their technology sectors.

 

I was being polite. :D

[sobek]

Quoted for relevance:

 

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[Invader ZIM]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/StWe7Hk_9mI/AAAAAAAAAgg/8v0NFnL12PA/s1600-h/14.10.2009+11-47-48_0029.jpg

 

From the IRST manufacturer's brochure, an Su-30 can be detected looking at it's rear hemisphere at up to 60km, or 37 miles, depending on atmospheric conditions.

 

Head on, up to 15 km....

 

That doesn't instill confidence to me that these Russian magic IRST systems are very capable against an aircraft, even when you have the jump on them and they are running from you. Subtract more range for aircraft that have reduced IR measures, or are smaller than an Su-30. Detection at 37 miles puts anyone dangerously within the range of Aim-120's R-77's, etc. And remember, at 37 miles you can see him because his tailpipes are presenting themselves to the sensor.

 

That's not good performance if you saw what the Western IRST systems are capable of.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[Basher54321]

F 117, as far I know, not in active duty anymore, have different reason, but one is for sure, detection probability gets higher, as east technology advanced.

 

 

F22, the production line are closed, as this system is to expensive ( I think they figure out, it is not worth the money, that's why they close the lines, otherwise the would keep the lines sleeping, for the case they need more, or they work on something better)

 

the states live since years on credit, how many J-20 can be produced from 1% of China BIP? How many T50 or Su35 they can buy for 1%BIP?

 

The reality is that the US reduce research, because of economy reasons, which leads that other country's like China, India with their strong growing economy can afford and attract all this technology company's and people, to work on their projects.

 

195 F22, what they can do, globally shared on all hotspots, How many Su35 , T50 will be out there? As this models will be also on export after a while.

 

Hiding aircraft from radar didn't start and end with F-117 - its an ongoing research area - the techniques and material used on F-35 are nothing like what was on the F-117

 

Don't worry the 2000 or so F-35s will have no issues taking up the slack. ;)

[Exorcet]

This topic is quite difficult, but I think at least the most will agree, that finally the pilots capability will make the difference, if the technology gap is not so big, like between F22 and Su35.

 

I'd say there could be a fairly big gap in technology there. Stealth alone is a big deal. The F-22 is very likely to be significantly faster as well, I've never heard of the Su-35 supercrusing near M1.5 or 1.7. AESA is generally regarded as being superior to PESA and the Su-35's radar is more of giant lighthouse as oppose to LPI as far as I know.

 

I'm sure the Su-35 would be a very worthy opponent to something like a F-15, but the F-22 was designed to outperform fighters on that level.

 

 

F 117, as far I know, not in active duty anymore, have different reason, but one is for sure, detection probability gets higher, as east technology advanced.

 

Part of is probably because the F-22 and F-35 are hands down better than the F-117. Increasing defense technology probably factored into it too, but the F-117 was 1st generation stealth. Ignore the stealth and it wasn't really special (but this speaks to how important stealth can be since the plane was so successful anyway).

 

Detection range , To detect a missile like Amram, I think is much more than 50nm in a combined Air defense environment, as there work more radar systems together, everything is linked over datalink, systems be smarter,. Faster.

That would include ECM then right? Even if you could see an AMRAAM at 50 nm in best conditions that doesn't means you would expect to see the missile at that distance all the time. If your first waring of the F-22 is an inbound missile, stealth is working just fine. The pilot being shot out isn't just going to pull hard and evade the missile. They're likely dead.

 

I know that a HARM can be detected from a Patriot system ( shoot with safe distance in training environment ), HARM is much bigger than Amram, but this was 15 years ago.

At what distance? SAM's vs ARM do have a bit of an advantage in that the ARM is going to come straight for them, so I suppose they will detect in eventually.

 

S400 is according experts the best SAM system in the moment, much more capable as Patriot, I am sure they can detect an Amram 50nm ++.

Speculation isn't really good enough for rolling out number though.

 

 

F22, the production line are closed, as this system is to expensive ( I think they figure out, it is not worth the money, that's why they close the lines, otherwise the would keep the lines sleeping, for the case they need more, or they work on something better)

The closed F-22 production focus on F-35, so it would seem they think the money is worth it for stealth aircraft. Besides with near 200 planes, they have a sizeable force that is complimented by hundreds of other fighters not counting the F-35 that will be coming later.

 

195 F22, what they can do, globally shared on all hotspots, How many Su35 , T50 will be out there? As this models will be also on export after a while.

There are more than 4 times as many F-22 as there are Su-35. There are no T-50's in service. There are a few hundred F-15 and F-16 that can fight with the F-22.

 

As long there is no conflict, where the F22 have to deal with modern east Air defense environment, we will not know it can be detected or not, but fact is that a clean F22 vs. Su35 want be happen, as for sure there are modern land, sea and Airborne radar, optical and acoustic systems , which work we'll together, update the Su35 via datalink, make it difficult to keep undetected all the time.

There is a lot of uncertainty for sure, but I think it's safe to say that the F-22 has the advantage. That's nothing against the Su-35, it just wasn't meant to compete with 5th gen fighters. That's the T-50's job.

[USARStarkey]

One conclusion you can make,from the video i posted.Dogfight F 22 vs Rafale.

Fifth generation,vector thrusted,"best plane on the world",cant shake of from his 6,fourth generation plane.:megalol:

On the end,he shot him with guns.Final shame.

 

Well, well, well. You made a point that doesn't mention the F-117. However, let us analyze this in more depth than you seem to be willing to go to.

 

We have no idea what the geometry of that engagement was, or what the load outs of the aircraft were. Either aircraft might have been loaded with disproportional stores options, or nonequivalent fuel loads. There is always the HUGE factor of pilot skill. If you watch the video you will notice that the Rafale does pretty much nothing but High-Yo-Yo's that entire fight. Despite this, the Raptor is giving him one hell of a time. Nothing is proven performance wise in this film. According to earlier reports, the French claimed a kill on a F-22 with a Mirage 2000. Are you going to start claiming the Mirage 2000 is therefore far superior?

 

While were at it, here is definitive proof the the F-15 is a huge waste of money and the P-51 Mustang is still the best fighter in the world. Jet engines are a huge waste of time. Just like Stelt.

 

 

That video was not staged. Took place online, the eagle pilot was just dumb, or trolling. At the end, I get kicked for team killing. I was returning fire however. In the video you will see that the F-15 fires a burst from its Vulcan at me twice.

Edited May 18, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Invader ZIM]

Found the IRST for the Su-35 here:

 

http://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

 

Upgraded detection ranges, quoting rear aspect range of up to 90km or 56 miles for Su-30 target.

 

Front hemisphere of 35km or 21 miles.

 

Still bad considering the range of BVR missiles and AESA radar capabilites.

 

 

 

 

Versus the PIRATE IRST on the Eurofighter

 

http://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/pirate-irst/

 

Detection range against typical subsonic fighter target: 90 km from front (head-on), 150 km from rear*

 

Identification range: >40 km

 

Maximum number of targets that can be tracked: 200

 

Ability to prioritize targets: yes

 

Field of regard: 140 ° in azimuth

 

Angular resolution: better than 0,05 °, some sources give 0,0143°

 

————————————————————–

 

Against a fighter supercruising without afterburner at Mach 1,7, detection range will be 10% greater, resulting in range of 100 km from front and 165 km from rear. Comparing it to OLS-35, it should be able to detect AMRAAM launch from 173 km, and Mach 4 AMRAAM from 154 km.

 

*150 km is rounded figure, actual figure is 145 km

 

CAPTOR has angular resolution of 0,05 ° at 165 km, and PIRATE is better than that

 

Su-35 has a long way to go to compete with the Eurofighter in IRST technology.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[EtherealN]

Also, note that F117 retirement doesn't have to be about detection capabilities threatening them. If I recall correctly, they had quite poor serviceability - they cost a LOT in maintenance and required a lot of hours of maint work to fly.

 

The introduction into service of the B-2 can also have removed the need for them. Yes, the B-2 is bigger, but it flies longer (so "spies" can't look at airbases nearby to see when they take off, like allegedly helped with the downing of Vega 3-1), higher, carries more weapons, and has more advanced stealth features. (The 117 has the polygonal surface because computers at the time of design did not have sufficient numbercrunching power to allow RCS-optimization of curved surfaces, apparently.) Development of radar absorbant paints and materiels has probably also advanced a lot since 1983.

 

Web archive gives this, btw, for the cause of retirement: http://archive.today/20120805134431/http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp#selection-1152.31-1197.284

 

The F-22 will assume the role (since the F-22 has been given attack capabilities as well, the 117 becomes a surplus). Since that retirement in 2008 though, the US hasn't had a need for the role that was filled by the F-117, which might help explain why we haven't seen the 22's being active in it (yet?). The 35's will probably pick up the role when they enter service, as well.

[RIPTIDE]

 

 

That video was not staged. .

haha brilliant. I enjoyed that. :thumbup: