DCS F-15C Landing Navigation

[IvanK]

Since the DCS F15 doesn't have a RTN function like the Russian types it can be awkward navigating directly to a specific airfield. You can cycle through the ILS stations hoping to jag the correct one. With this in mind I have attempted to produce a Mission Template that includes all airfields as WYPTS. This then allows you to use the F15 NAV mode to track direct to any airfield. I have set these Waypoints in the same order as the SU25T names each Airfield....i.e. 1-21, See JPG.

 

Adapted from Orig image from 10thgunfighters.de charts

 

All Waypoints are set on the centre of the Runway equidistant from the thresholds. If a TACAN station is also on the airfield the WYPT has been placed on the runway centreline but abeam the the TACAN.

 

 

With this done if you need to go direct to any

airfield select its WYPT number then read its distance in the HUD and HSI and the Bearing to it from the bearing pointer

on the HSI and Bearing marker on the HUD Heading scale. Since we cant actually set the CDI ignore it and in most cases the HUD lateral steering bar. The HUD Bearing pointer on the heading scale is fine to use. All Navigation

is performed on the Bearing pointer or its tail on the HSI. (It would be perfect if we could set the HSI course .. hint hint ED :)

 

The TRK below illustrates a "TACAN like" approach to Guduata Rwy 33 using this template via the 12nm Arc south. A "Dodgy" approach chart is below. Using this technique Radial to an Arc to a Radial you can set up for pretty much any type of approach like a TAC ILS for example, switching to ILS mode once on Final etc.

 

I anticipate using WYPTS 22 and up for Mission specific waypoints.

 

F15 ILS NOTES

The DCS F15 ILS mechanisation is kind of quirky. if the Airfield has a Western ILS then you will get Full HUD,ADI and HSI information when inside the "DCS determined" ILS usable envelope .

 

If the Airfield has a Russian ILS then you can get valid HUD steering ILS FD cross but the HSI CDI and the ADI steering bars are inoperative and ADI Red Flags will be visible.

 

In the Zip a TRK file flying the approach using the Waypoints template, and the Mis file with the Waypoints set up as described.

Gudamis_trk.zip

Edited April 28, 2014 by IvanK

[Robin_Hood]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Why do you think russian RTN mode is an advantage over what the F-15 has ?

 

Also, let me say this: You can cycle through the ILS stations and select for sure any airfield you want. The reason is, you can discriminate airfields by their "Course" indication (magnetic heading of the runway). Each airfield has a different course, currently.

 

Ergo, ILS mode can be used as a makeshift TACAN for every airfield in the game.

 

Thanks for the tip about ILS ADI bars, I didn't know that it depended on the airfield.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Robin_Hood

[IvanK]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Why do you think russian RTN mode is an advantage over what the F-15 has ?

 

Also, let me say this: You can cycle through the ILS stations and select for sure any airfield you want. The reason is, you can discriminate airfields by their "Course" indication (magnetic heading of the runway). Each airfield has a different course, currently.

 

Ergo, ILS mode can be used as a makeshift TACAN for every airfield in the game.

 

Thanks for the tip about ILS ADI bars, I didn't know that it depended on the airfield.

 

Its a Hit and miss method of determining at what ILS you are looking at. If each had a unique ID it would be the answer. All this could be simply resolved (as proposed a while ago) if each ILS station had a number Ident associated with it like for instance lets say BATUMI it would appear in the HUD as "11 ILSN" . 11 being the Airfield ID number (as used by the SU25T) for Batumi.

 

There are issues with Course method. If two airfields have the same Front course (unique at present as you say). You do actually get a Front course for both Russian and Western ILS on the HSI, but nothing for a non ILS airfield.

 

How do you get a TACAN type solution as you suggest to any of the non ILS airfields ? ... RTN in the Russian aircraft provides that as long as you use the map to confirm which airfield RTN is looking at. Again if RTN had an ID number this would be better. So if BATUMI was selected it would show in the HUD as "11 RTN"

 

The alternative method to get a "Steer" is of course asking for Navigation assistance ... though you only get Bearing. Asking for an "Inbound' gives Range and Bearing but the ILS wont Auto tune to the same airfield as you asked for the inbound. If it did that could also be another solution. For Sim purposes (with FC3's inability to tune a specific ILS freq) this would be a good compromise imo. Though of course IRL you cant get Bearing from an ILS station.

 

Whilst I am at it the HSI course/CDI bar is. bugged. As soon as you get inside the Outer marker the course setting simply repeats your current heading ... it doesn't remain fixed on the front course as it should. outside the OM it shows the current ILS station Front course and is usable.

Edited May 2, 2014 by IvanK

[skouras]

Its a Hit and miss method of determining at what ILS you are looking at. If each had a unique ID it would be the answer. All this could be simply resolved (as proposed a while ago) if each ILS station had a number Ident associated with it like for instance lets say BATUMI it would appear in the HUD as "11 ILSN" . 11 being the Airfield ID number (as used by the SU25T) for Batumi.

 

There are issues with Course method. If two airfields have the same Front course (unique at present as you say). You do actually get a Front course for both Russian and Western ILS on the HSI, but nothing for a non ILS airfield.

 

How do you get a TACAN type solution as you suggest to any of the non ILS airfields ? ... RTN in the Russian aircraft provides that as long as you use the map to confirm which airfield RTN is looking at. Again if RTN had an ID number this would be better. So if BATUMI was selected it would show in the HUD as "11 RTN"

 

The alternative method to get a "Steer" is of course asking for Navigation assistance ... though you only get Bearing. Asking for an "Inbound' gives Range and Bearing but the ILS wont Auto tune to the same airfield as you asked for the inbound. If it did that could also be another solution. For Sim purposes (with FC3's inability to tune a specific ILS freq) this would be a good compromise imo. Though of course IRL you cant get Bearing from an ILS station.

 

Whilst I am at it the HSI course/CDI bar is. bugged. As soon as you get inside the Outer marker the course setting simply repeats your current heading ... it doesn't remain fixed on the front course as it should. outside the OM it shows the current ILS station Front course and is usable.

very good post

[badger66]

Be great if somehow the kneeboard map could be replaced with this map ..... hint hint .

[IvanK]

Some Kneeboard cheat sheets to print. Includes Airfield Name, Runway Abbreviation, SU25T NavID number and Rwy headings. The Originals come from some old cards from the last century :)

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2014 by IvanK

[Robin_Hood]

As I said, as each airfield has a unique course, you can know for sure what airfield you're looking at. Works for both russian and US FC3 jets. And here's the list:

 

(When there are two numbers, it's because the course display is somewhat between the two ; the number between brackets is the one displayd in the F10 map)

 

Anapa: 041-042 (041)

Batumi: 125-126 (125)

Beslan: 093-094 (93)

Gelendzhik: 040 (39)

Gudauta: 331 (331)

Kobuleti: 070 (70)

Krasnodar Center: 267 (267)

Krasnodar Pachkovsky: 047 (47)

Krymsk: 219-220 (219)

Kutaisi: 074 (74)

Maykop: 219 (218 )

Mineralne Vody: 295-296 (295)

Mozdok: 083 (82)

Nalchik: 235-236 (55)

Novorossiysk: 042 (42)

Senakhi: 095 (094)

Sochi: 062 (242)

Soganlug: 132-133 (132)

Sukhumi: 296-297 (296)

Tbilisi: 308 (307)

Vaziani: 135-136 (135)

 

As for using that as a makeshift TACAN, I have noted that when in ILSN mode, you will get the distance from the airfield (runway threshold I think), and bearing pointer in the HSI will point to some point lined up with the runway at some distance. Granted that doesn't make it a great precise TACAN, as the distance and bearing indication do not perfectly correlate (because they refer to a different point), but I have found it sufficient to fly acceptable DME Arcs.

 

I haven't really tried that lately in the F-15C, but I don't think it has changed recently.

 

I see though how RTN mode may give a more precise TACAN, as the bearing and range indication refer to the same point. However, it is not that great for TACAN approach, as it gives you a TACAN 7 miles from the airfield.

 

Bottom line is, TACAN or not: whatever the plane I'm in (F-15C or Su-33/27), if I want to go direct to one airfield, all I do is select the correct airfield in ILSN/LNDG mode based on its course, and use the bearing pointer to go there, while the range counter gives me the distance.

 

Of course, if/when two in the future we have several airfield with the exact same course, all of this won't work anymore.

[IvanK]

Does your method work to a Non ILS equipped airfield in the F15 or A10A ?

[3Sqn_Sven]

Nice one Ivan.

 

Robin - Ivan's way is easier

[IvanK]

Greetings Sven .... You going to the Ball ? :)

 

Just gone out and retested using Robins method. Seems even for the Non ILS airfields you get a Pseudo ILS. The HSI Bearing and CDU do Indeed indicate a specific Rwy heading until 2-3nm then the CDI reverts to aircraft heading instead of course. The HUD FD + does give you steering to a 3 Deg flight path though.

 

Anapa comes up course wise as 041.5 (Last digital drum halfway between 1 and 2) so might cause some confusion with Gelendzhik which is a solid 042. Though ATC and DR should be able to resolve this ambiguity.

 

So Airfields without a Western ILS all get an HSI Brg and Range with valid CDI until 2-3nm. HUD FD provides valid steering to a 3Deg Glide Path to the threshold. ADI steering bars are inop in this case.

 

Airfields with a Western/ICAO ILS you get the lot including ADI steering. CDI is still porked inside 2-3nm as it too then reverts to aircraft heading rather than Course.

 

I did find a "Phantom" Pseudo ILS about 10nm off the coast near Nov that gave a course of 199 .... X files stuff.

Edited May 3, 2014 by IvanK

[Robin_Hood]

I concur, IvanK. Don't think I saw a ghost ILS, although the behaviour is somewhat strange. It seems that sometimes when you switch back and forth between NAV and ILSN it keeps the last airfield selected, and sometimes it resets to the default airfield.

 

I noticed recently this issue with the course pointer going nuts when real close, I don't remember it happening before - might be a relatively new stuff (I don't fly the aircraft that often, so it may date from the new cockpit).

 

I agree that waypoints are easier, but they clutter the NAV mode - doesn't it force you to cycle through all waypoints to get back to the early ones ? I wish there was a "Previous waypoint" button.

[IvanK]

Agree a Previous WYPT key would be handy.

 

If you are still inside the "DCS determined ILS envelope" or area then switching back to NAV then ILS results in the previous ILS coming up. I think this "ILS envelope" is effectively 10Km

[fitness88]

originally posted 11-08-2013

With thanks to Robin_Hood who originally created this list, I have found it much easier navigating the F-15C using the HSI.

I re-organized the F-15C HSI course list below to be in sequential order for use in ILS/NAV. As you cycle through the HSI courses one by one you will find they stay to this constant order allowing you quick access to any of the 21 ILS.

Occasionally after landing you may need to cycle to NAV and then back to ILS/NAV to get the course order set.

I thought some of you would like to have this list.

 

 

Some notes by Robin_ Hood:

Sometimes, the HSI is in-between courses. In those cases, I have noted it as for example, 236-235 (course between 235 and 236). Also, I added, between parenthesis, the heading given by the F10 map for each airport. It is usually slightly less than that from the HSI, and sometimes the reverse, as it seems to indicate take-off heading instead of landing heading (some airports have landings and take-offs done in opposite direction (eg. Sochi, the airplanes always fly over the sea, taking-off or landing).

 

• Sochi: 062 (242)
  
• Krasnodar Pachkovsky: 047 (47)
  
• Sukhumi: 296-297 (296)
  
• Gudauta: 331 (331)
  
• Batumi: 125-126 (125)
  
• Senakhi: 095 (094)
  
• Kobuleti: 070 (70)
  
• Kutaisi: 074 (74)
  
• Mineralne Vody: 295-296 (295)
  
• Nalchik: 235-236 (55)
  
• Mozdok: 083 (82)
  
• Tbilisi: 308 (307)
  
• Soganlug: 132-133 (132)
  
• Vaziani: 135-136 (135)
  
• Beslan: 093-094 (93)
  
• Anapa: 041-042 (041)
  
• Krasnodar Center: 267 (267)
  
• Novorossiysk: 042 (42)
  
• Krymsk: 219-220 (219)
  
• Maykop: Khanskaya 219 (218 )
  
• Gelendzhik: 040 (39)
  

[Lino_Germany]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for all the good contributions.

[IvanK]

Great tip about the ILS selection order.

[=Pedro=]

Be great if somehow the kneeboard map could be replaced with this map ..... hint hint .

 

 

Is it possible to change it anyway ?

[Doum76]

A bit of a solution for easy or sure ILS Nav point Selection in the list.

 

Greetings guys,

 

Nice thread! Not having a precise navigation system in the F-15c is killing me... i've been out of Sims for a while, out of FSX for abour a year, and longer from DCS, back then i was flying the A-10C and stoped flying just a bit the patch came out that allowed the BlackSharks and Warthogs to fly in the same sessions... and i had a bit of a problem not having the ILS or Nav points identified with their ID numbers as there was in the A-10C which made it quite easy to find, lots of tricks i found for knowing or discovering which ILS in the F-15C's HUD was which airport, wither using the ATC to callin inbounds and then trying to find the ILS point with their distance and rnw but as stated in this thread is quite not sure...

 

So i came up with a different way to find these, i tried it a few times and ended up being the right Airport or ILS id i wanted it to be, i'll try to explan it the best i can and easy way. First you need the map linked in this thread at the top, i'll reling it, the map showing all airports and their ID's, first you need to find a specific airport and know for sure it is one and associate it with it's ID... remember we have 21 airfields, and there is 21 ILS navs in the F-15C which you can browse using right or left arrows...

 

So the way i came up with is, looking at the map, you need to get 2 far away airfields, so you got Anapa which is the further one on TOP-Left corner of the map and Vaziano the further Down-Right corner of the map. Anapa being IS #1 (great being it number one makes it easier :)) and Vaziani being ID #20 (well almost the last one, there is ID #21 just after but styill easy and fast to count)

 

So the trick is, to know where you are when you need and airfield to land, 2 way to know this easy, 1st, looking at the map view in DCS, but, if you'Re flying formation thhis can be tricky as i love getting my eyes on where am going, the other way is, calling in ATC menu on your radio, knowing the top one airfield being the closest airfield from your location... So with that, looking at the map linked here, is shows you where around you are on the map, and figure out which airfield is the further away? Why further? because looking at the closest one won'T give you an exact for sure solution to find a specific number, but, if, for exemple, you'Re on the lower part of the map, near by Sukhumi, you know for sure, the airfield being the further away is Anapa, so browing the ILS list, locate the one being the further and voilà, this gives you Anapa, and being ID #1, and i'Ve tested, they are allin order of ID, so since, Anapa is ID #1, and if for exemple you want to land at Sochi being ID #7, just cound to 7 starting from Anapa ILs and there you go, this will give you Sochi, so now to be sure, you can call in ATC, then inbound to Sochi, and compare the infos, the distance should be close to it or more likely 10 nm difference since i think not all of them has ILS beacon, and compare the RNW ATC gives you from what you get on your HSI, remember that the RNY ATC gives you might not be the one with ILS or if there is not, so as looking at your ATC look at both oposite azimuth, where the bearing pointer or the bearing tail pointer are pointing, so for exemple, either 06 or 24.

 

Now the trick is, if you're in the middle of the map or you simply want to make sure the further ILS nav point you have is really Anapa or Vaziani, since you can be close to the middle of the map in between both airfield so it makes not as much obvious as if for exemple you are near by Batumi... Just analyse the map or the best way to analyse this is, go in the Mission Editor, simple zoom in on Anapa and Vaziani and look at both airfield surrounding, you'll see that Anapa, is surrounded by ID # 2 and 3, but are a bit away from it, now look at Vaziani, see when zoomed in how close Vaziani is to Tbilisi - Lochini being ID 18 and Tbilisi - Soganlug being ID #19... both Tsilisi are real clsoe to each others, when browing the ILS nav points in the F-15, both Tsilisi are so close to each others thay they show almost the same distance from where you are, so that's a good point, you find the further airfield. What i do then to confirm i do get for exemple Anapa or Vaziani for exemple when it is not obvious which one is the further one, i take the ILS i found being further, than i browse the 2 previous ILS from it, if the distance is greater than about 5-10 NM there is a chance it ain't Vaziani since they are clsoe to each other, then to confirm select the previous ILS, if it ain't really almost the same distance from the one previous, this is for sure not both Tsibili. so the ILS id you had wasn't 20 or Vaziani but ID 1 and Anapa, if you get Vaziani then count for the ILS you want but starting at 20, 21, then 1, 2 etc...

 

Hope this helps.... If you have any question, feel free to ask. Video made, i'll upload tomorow on youtube and add notes to it, will then post it here..

 

Here's the link back to the map. Oh yeah and one thing i forgot to mention, as for the ILS read out, i can'T confirm they all work as there is Russian or not airfield, but i mostly use the ILS nav points to get the right course on my HSI not to fly or land with the needle,s but to align myself with the runway as to get ready for a overhead break or Visual landing, but mostly to have an idea of the distance, since ATC gives you the distance you need to travel but without a reference point to spot how much you travel you need to use math to calculate how much time you need to travel to reach their distance, and sometimes i get not wuick enought to align myselg right with the runway if i don't have the course on my HSI flying in formation to guide people :)

 

Doum

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[sslechta]

I simply go to the F10 map and draw a line from my current position to the airport I want. That gives me distance and heading. I point my plane in the correct direction and tab through the airports until I get a match that shows the heading tick on my HUD with the correct distance in the lower right of HUD.

[GC1993]

I simply go to the F10 map and draw a line from my current position to the airport I want. That gives me distance and heading. I point my plane in the correct direction and tab through the airports until I get a match that shows the heading tick on my HUD with the correct distance in the lower right of HUD.

 

SAME - this is the most logical way of doing it and arguably the most realistic as eagle pilots IRL will have a map on their kneeboard to compensate for no advanced nav data on their MFD.

[IvanK]

SAME - this is the most logical way of doing it and arguably the most realistic as eagle pilots IRL will have a map on their kneeboard to compensate for no advanced nav data on their MFD.

 

Not really even the Bog standard F15c will at least have a tuneable TACAN station to get Range and Bearing to a specific station ..... and able to select a specific WYPT on the INS... and those with the colour MFD can get a whole lot more.....So eyeballing from a map is not that realistic imo.

[Doum76]

I simply go to the F10 map and draw a line from my current position to the airport I want. That gives me distance and heading. I point my plane in the correct direction and tab through the airports until I get a match that shows the heading tick on my HUD with the correct distance in the lower right of HUD.

 

 

Good trick indeed. For some personal choices though, i try not to use the F-10 map view, since it is not available in some MP sessions and is a bit annoying when flying formaiton, leaving from eye sight my lead or what is going on in front of me, so i tried a different aproaches and not access menus, besides the comms one and be sure exactly where i am going.

[HiJack]

In my signature you will find the kneeboard map I have been using for many years. I use it on a tablet in front of me now. The list is good for both Eastern and Western aircrafts and shows the airport number for the Russian and the heading of the runway for the western. The "alt" number is the closes alternate airport.

 

EDIT: The F-15C column is the reading on the F-15C heading on HSI (upper right corner). Just sipp through the list in the F-15C cockpit a couple of times and compare to the list and you will quickly get it.

Edited September 1, 2015 by HiJack

[JINX_1391]

I simply go to the F10 map and draw a line from my current position to the airport I want. That gives me distance and heading. I point my plane in the correct direction and tab through the airports until I get a match that shows the heading tick on my HUD with the correct distance in the lower right of HUD.

 

I've been playing DCS for about a month. I figured this out on one of my first few flights; reading through all the comments since OP I thought I was just going about navigating like a n00b.

 

Most IRL pilots will tell you to KISS; so the above works for me, takes less than 3 seconds to accomplish, and no need for advanced button pushing and calculations.

 

Thanks for keeping me sane.

[Xgkkp]

Uh, doesn't calling the airport and asking for navigation give you the heading and distance to the airport? And from there, you can call up the right ILS station based on distance, or wait until you get within range and ask for the landing vector?

 

Edit: Whoops, sorry for the resurrection, this is what happens when I am reading up lots at once. I DO miss the russian return guidance though.

[Xenovia]

whats the need for ILS if you know the map?