Jump to content

F-4 Phantom Who Wants it Poll

USARStarkey

By USARStarkey
in Magnitude 3 LLC

 Share

F-4 Phantom Who Wants it Poll  

1880 members have voted

  1. 1. F-4 Phantom Who Wants it Poll

    • YES. THE MIG-21 NEEDS ITS RIVAL
      972
    • YES. Because I just want the Phantom
      718
    • No, I don't like cool planes
      79
    • No, I love the myriad of lame trainers and far flung planes with no historical opposition.
      116

Recommended Posts

Hummingbird

Hummingbird

Posted
Posted
There will only be one dev capable of doing the F-4 over the "short term"... Leatherneck... and only after successfully completing the F-14A. The key being the development of reasonably good/realistic/immersive AI for a RIO/WSO in the back seat, preferably with the option to support a 2nd player as the guy in back.

 

Alternatively, the buttons/switches available to the RIO/WSO that are unavailable to the pilot would have to be operated by the pilot via mapped keys/joystick buttons. I have the Simworks Studios F-4B for FSX and can reasonably operate the radar without having to switch to a backseat view to the point of searching, tracking, and killing a target with an AIM-7 Sparrow.

 

Given the existence of the MiG-21bis, it makes so much sense to provide an F-4E to create another historically important dueling pair, much like the MiG-15/F-86, Fw190/P-51, and Su-27/F-15.

 

I think Belsimtek would be able as well due to their close partnership with ED.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 618
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

streakeagle

streakeagle

Posted
Posted
I think Belsimtek would be able as well due to their close partnership with ED.

 

Does Belsimtek already have a two-seat interceptor with functional AI for the back seat? Because that is what Leatherneck claims it will have when the F-14A is done. No one else presently or for the foreseeable future has anything like this in the works.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hummingbird

Hummingbird

Posted
Posted
Does Belsimtek already have a two-seat interceptor with functional AI for the back seat? Because that is what Leatherneck claims it will have when the F-14A is done. No one else presently or for the foreseeable future has anything like this in the works.

 

No but they're working on several two seat aircraft for use in their military version of DCS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
MiG21bisFishbedL

MiG21bisFishbedL

Posted
Posted
No but they're working on several two seat aircraft for use in their military version of DCS.

 

But, that doesn't mean they'll see the light of day in the consumer software market, sadly.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hook47

Hook47

Posted
Posted
We need a F-4 Phantom for put this Mig21 Jockey´s in her place!!! ;) and a F-105 Too

 

I'm afraid the only time I know of the 105 and MiG 21 met, it wasn't the MiG that was put in its place :)

 

The F-5 in good hands can splash a MiG and vice versa with the MiG. It's a very good match up from what I have seen and I think it will always be mostly about the skill of the crew. my Uncle was an F-4 aviator in Vietnam and he said many many times the F-4 wasn't a MiG 21 killer, in fact he said the MiG had some real advantages in the merge, he said our superior training won out in the end. Just my .02 cents

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Diskey

Diskey

Posted
Posted (edited)
I'm afraid the only time I know of the 105 and MiG 21 met, it wasn't the MiG that was put in its place :)

 

The F-5 in good hands can splash a MiG and vice versa with the MiG. It's a very good match up from what I have seen and I think it will always be mostly about the skill of the crew. my Uncle was an F-4 aviator in Vietnam and he said many many times the F-4 wasn't a MiG 21 killer, in fact he said the MiG had some real advantages in the merge, he said our superior training won out in the end. Just my .02 cents

 

 

We need the "Thut" for mash those SAM sites at the north, and act as a bait for the Mig21 and then de Phantom engange... in a 60´ Vietnam MAP!!!

 

I dont´t know if the F-4 is a Mig Killer, but they fly all the way from Hanoi to the DMZ :smilewink:


Edited by Diskey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Vincent90

Vincent90

Posted
Posted

According to the Vietnamese archives, the kill ratio between F-4 and MiG-21 is about 1:1. Like it was said before: It was thanks to superior training that the F-4 stood a chance against the MiG-21.

 

Not that this all matters a lot, since the 21bis wasn't delivered to Vietnam until 1987, and in any case, the early MiG-23's are more of an analogue to the F-4 than the 21 ever was :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tirak

Tirak

Posted
Posted
According to the Vietnamese archives, the kill ratio between F-4 and MiG-21 is about 1:1. Like it was said before: It was thanks to superior training that the F-4 stood a chance against the MiG-21.

 

Not that this all matters a lot, since the 21bis wasn't delivered to Vietnam until 1987, and in any case, the early MiG-23's are more of an analogue to the F-4 than the 21 ever was :)

 

Eh, sort of, kind of, not really. The F-4's rate of climb and ability to perform in the vertical was unmatched at the time, quite frankly it is superior to the MiG-21 in that aspect, however early in the war pilots received little to no training, so they tried to turn flat, where the F-4 does not do well. The F-4 is frankly a better plane than the 21, better cockpit ergonomics, better performance, superior dogfight characteristics (especially after the maneuvering slats were introduced), a vastly better radar and better missiles to use with that radar. F-4s were hampered by pilot training and RoE, not because it was inferior to the 21.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Aginor

Aginor

Posted
Posted
Eh, sort of, kind of, not really. The F-4's rate of climb and ability to perform in the vertical was unmatched at the time, quite frankly it is superior to the MiG-21 in that aspect, however early in the war pilots received little to no training, so they tried to turn flat, where the F-4 does not do well. The F-4 is frankly a better plane than the 21, better cockpit ergonomics, better performance, superior dogfight characteristics (especially after the maneuvering slats were introduced), a vastly better radar and better missiles to use with that radar. F-4s were hampered by pilot training and RoE, not because it was inferior to the 21.

 

One of the books I read recently explains that process rather well, I am not quite sure anymore but I _think_ it was "Scream of Eagles" by Robert Wilcox.

 

The pilots were amazed how agile the Phantom was, nobody had really tried to dogfight with it before.

DCSW weapons cheat sheet

speed cheat sheet

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Vincent90

Vincent90

Posted
Posted
The F-4's rate of climb and ability to perform in the vertical was unmatched at the time, quite frankly it is superior to the MiG-21 in that aspect, however early in the war pilots received little to no training, so they tried to turn flat, where the F-4 does not do well.

Uhu

 

And

 

and in any case, the early MiG-23's are more of an analogue to the F-4 than the 21 ever was

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...
Robert31178

Robert31178

Posted
Posted
One of the books I read recently explains that process rather well, I am not quite sure anymore but I _think_ it was "Scream of Eagles" by Robert Wilcox.

 

The pilots were amazed how agile the Phantom was, nobody had really tried to dogfight with it before.

 

 

I read the book, it explained everything about how and why the Phantom was superior to the MiG-21 in just about every way. The USN got smart and farmed out the Israelis, who had successfully employed the big jet vs Russian iron for years. During testing in 1v1 with pilots who were all similarly capable flying against each other they found that even though the planes were pretty closely matched in a turn while slow, and accelerated at roughly the same rate, up to a certain point, then the Rhino ran away with it. The MiG couldn't match the big jet in lag pursuits, climbs, overall acceleration, rate of turn at speed, and the little delta wings that made the MiG-21 so good at low and medium speeds hurt it when the fight got fast. The USN pilots were regularly able to whip the MiG, and the only time the MiG won out was when the USAF was invited to come do some testing/training and stuck to their tried and true WWII tactics.

 

Pre Top Gun ratio: 2:1 USAF/USN to the MiG's

Post Top Gun ration 11:1 USN vs MiGs, USAF still 2:1

 

It's almost exclusively the USN Phantoms, less than 6 kills in the last 2 years of the conflict were by F-8's. Also, most of them ARE vs MiG-17, and that's because early on the Phantoms were getting kills vs the -21's and they were pulled from combat so as to not lose their precious expensive jets. Mig-21 is a neat jet, but it was no Phantom beater. The Israelis proved it, and the US proved it, no matter what happens in the game. Reality is that the kill ratio speaks for itself.

 

And Vincent lol....of course the Vietnamese records show an equal footing, why would they admit they got worked??

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jaktaz

Jaktaz

Posted
Posted
Some more interesting shots.

 

1024px-F-4E_51st_TFW_with_Pave_Spike_and_GBU-12s_1982.JPEG

 

Better view of Pave Spike and some GBU-12.

 

 

1280px-F-4E_with_Pave_Tack_near_Eglin_AFB_1976.JPEG

 

The clumsy Pave Track FLIR installation and a training GBU-10.

 

 

 

1280px-F-4E_3rd_TFW_dropping_GBU-15_1985.JPEG

 

GBU-15.

 

 

1024px-F-4E_52TFW_Nov1984.jpeg

 

Another nice Shrike bird from the 52nd TFW in Germany. The 52nd TFW was the only SEAD wing in Europe with mixed F-4G/F-4E (later F-4G/F-16C) hunter-killer teams.

 

 

1280px-F-4G_F-4Es_52TFW_1984.JPEG

 

We already had this picture previously in the thread, but I think it is a remarkable shot. F-4G in the lead with one Standard ARM and Shrike each, followed by an F-4E with 2 Shirke on the right and a F-4E with Mk-82 bombs on the left.

 

Wow I think the last shot is really great too I love thinking about the kind of SEAD/DEAD tactics the f-4 guys would be using in Germany in case of WWIII

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
punk

punk

Posted
Posted
Yes, because that really shows your maturity.

No, it really showed yours unfortunately. If you had thought more about it you might not have felt passive-aggressive sarcasm was the way to go. You might have laid out a well reasoned argument for the bird and provided a yes or no option. Don't blame him , this time blame yourself, what you thought was funny simply wasn't.

 

Salute,

Punk

Punk

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...
shab249

shab249

Posted
Posted
so F-4 + F-14 + F-5 = Iran air force... All we need now is a F-4

 

and a mig-29 lol but we already have it (well...)

 

pleaseeeeeeeee FFFF-4444444 4 **** sake we need it but please bring AIM-7E with it the M is too new and powerful for vietnam i already opened a thread about it

Link to comment
Share on other sites
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...