F-15 useless against EOS

[TZeer]

Taken from another forum:

 

That AMRAAM Pk figure was dreamed up by Carlo Kopp through the dodgy use of statistics for "beyond visual range - BVR" engagements only and it was done to "prove" the alleged in-effectiveness of the F-35.

 

He deliberately excluded "non-BVR" successful warshots, he deliberately excluded instances where more than one missile was successfully fired at a target and he deliberately included instances where missiles were fired WELL out of their NEZ with the pilots aiming to suppress a threat and achieve a "mission kill" knowing full well the missile was unlikely to achieve an actual kill.

 

By manipulating the figures to suit your agenda you can work out a credible Pk value for all variants of AMRAAM anywhere from 0.43Pk up to about as high as 0.8-0.9Pk.

 

The fact is, the AMRAAM is the most operationally successful medium range missile in-service today. There is no other current BVR weapon that has demonstrated anywhere near it's operational effectiveness.

 

The latest AIM-120C7 and AIM-120D missiles are excellent weapons.

 

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/aim-120-amraam-pk-12615/#ixzz2vULVc1cb

 

And how long is it since an AMRAAM was shot at another plane in a real BVR fight? 14-15 years?

Edited March 9, 2014 by TZeer

[Exorcet]

Nonsense, deception jammers react to radar reflections, threats, the radar signal is received, delayed, amplified, modulated, and retransmitted back to the radar, STT or not. What would be the point of a deception jammer if you appear on the bandits radar in the exact same spot that you are.

SPJ's wouldn't want to go into action unless you're locked because if they did they would actually be giving away your position.

 

On the other hand I can envision a modern jammer sensor fused with the RWR or even radar saying "OK this guy is close enough to be a problem, it's better to jam now rather than trying to sneak".

 

I'd say you could still jam TWS, but its complicated by the fact that you never know if it's watching. The jammer isn't doing good by broadcasting a signal if the TWS radar didn't know you were there in the first place.

[GGTharos]

The USAF has fired 13 AMRAAMS BVR and achieved 6 BVR kills with the AMRAAM, that equals a Pk of 0.46 against non maneuvering enemy without countermeasures and sometimes without radar and this is with US numerical superiority.

 

The EE war was very different scenario, a face off between similar opposition, Su-27 and MiG-29A who engaged each other and defended themselves with equal aggression. The Pk of the R-27R was diabolical and really resulted in forcing the opponent defensive so they could chase down and finish off with R-73, pretty much like it is in DCS. Have you ever tried R-27R/R-73 battles in DCS/FC? It's the EE war all over again.

 

I think you don't really know what the plot is, but fair enough, that's what you'll hear out on the internet :)

 

Nonsense, deception jammers react to radar reflections, threats, the radar signal is received, delayed, amplified, modulated, and retransmitted back to the radar, STT or not. What would be the point of a deception jammer if you appear on the bandits radar in the exact same spot that you are.

 

SPJs trigger on STT. You don't have to believe it or like it, that's the way it is for very physical and computational reasons. SPJs aren't there to mask your position, they're there to defend against a threat, break radar locks if possible etc. 'Electronically denied environments' have a lot more EW components than a fighter's SPJ.

[Frostie]

Taken from another forum:

 

 

 

Carlo Kopp didn't dream anything up but he may have had a hidden agenda, but the figure he used is the actual figure for BVR and more useful than using a general Pk figure. It stands to reason Pk is going to be higher at WVR so why mix the two to create a less useful statistic.

The fact is when an active reaches its active stages it is at its most dangerous, but before that at BVR it obviously has less chance of achieving a kill because in the same vein as Semi-Active missiles going defensive can render your missile useless but not quite with actives which should still activate at the basket stage.

 

And how long is it since an AMRAAM was shot at another plane in a real BVR fight? 14-15 years?

In 1999, two MiG-25s were attacked with three AIM-7 Sparrows and one AIM-120 AMRAAM from F15s and after that by two AIM-54 Phoenix missiles from F14s. All missiles missed, and MiG-25s escaped.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Frostie

[JNASova]

Now I'm going with this issue a bit out off topic, but has already raised the issue.

If we have US missiles from `90,why we dont have russian missiles from `90,like R 27ER1 or R 27ET1?

[Frostie]

Now I'm going with this issue a bit out off topic, but has already raised the issue.

If we have US missiles from `90,why we dont have russian missiles from `90,like R 27ER1 or R 27ET1?

They are export missiles, nothing more.

[Frostie]

SPJs trigger on STT. You don't have to believe it or like it, that's the way it is for very physical and computational reasons. SPJs aren't there to mask your position, they're there to defend against a threat, break radar locks if possible etc. 'Electronically denied environments' have a lot more EW components than a fighter's SPJ.

So to get this straight, Russians know that TWS is a feature used on many aircraft including there own that doesn't 'apparently' give off a warning (no actual proof of this). So with the constant evolving battle of ECM v ECCM etc. they choose to ignore this by leaving SPJ to be only activated when an Active missile is right on your nose. Who are these imbeciles that make this stuff, oh that's right boffins, what do they know and what's the point of keeping it secret when you clearly already know what they're planning GG. ;)

[JNASova]

Any chance to get R 27ET working with PPS radar mod?

[TZeer]

Carlo Kopp didn't dream anything up but he may have had an agenda, but the figure he used is the actual figure for BVR and more useful than using a general Pk figure. It stands to reason Pk is going to be higher at WVR so why mix the two to create a less useful statistic.

The fact is when an active reaches its active stages it is at its most dangerous, but before that at BVR it obviously has less chance of achieving a kill because in the same vein as Semi-Active missiles going defensive can render your missile useless but not quite with actives which should still activate at the basket stage.

 

But you are using a Pk figure, that range over 4-6 different versions of the same missile. From data that are 14-15 years old. From a guy that had a clear agenda. On a missile that was not even in the US inventory at that time....

 

In 1999, two MiG-25s were attacked with three AIM-7 Sparrows and one AIM-120 AMRAAM from F15s and after that by two AIM-54 Phoenix missiles from F14s. All missiles missed, and MiG-25s escaped.

 

Still only one AMRAAM fired ;)

[GGTharos]

Russians and Americans know that the limited power of the SPJ causes it to become less and less useful the more things you try to jam. They won't be trying to jam TWS or other radars in search mode with their SPJs. That's why the SOJs exist.

 

What we have today are aircraft equipped with AESA antennas which can perform electronic attack which is quite a bit of a different deal from an SPJ, and far more powerful. We have no playable aircraft that are so equipped.

 

The boffin here is you.

 

So to get this straight, Russians know that TWS is a feature used on many aircraft including there own that doesn't 'apparently' give off a warning (no actual proof of this). So with the constant evolving battle of ECM v ECCM etc. they choose to ignore this by leaving SPJ to be only activated when an Active missile is right on your nose. Who are these imbeciles that make this stuff, oh that's right boffins, what do they know and what's the point of keeping it secret when you clearly already know what they're planning GG. ;)

[Eddie]

So to get this straight, Russians know that TWS is a feature used on many aircraft including there own that doesn't 'apparently' give off a warning (no actual proof of this). So with the constant evolving battle of ECM v ECCM etc. they choose to ignore this by leaving SPJ to be only activated when an Active missile is right on your nose. Who are these imbeciles that make this stuff, oh that's right boffins, what do they know and what's the point of keeping it secret when you clearly already know what they're planning GG. ;)

 

Well GG is, for the most part, correct. You are not correct at all.

 

SPJs are just one more countermeasure available to defeat a threat, just like chaff, flare, and AIRCM. The reason SPJ don't generally attempt to counter a non tracking emmiter is simple, when you can only counter a small number of emitters at once (I mean single digits, maybe even just a single threat, depends on the system in question) within a specific elevation and azimuth range you don't try to counter emitters that do not represent a direct threat to the aircraft being defended. Not to mention the fact that keeping an ESCM suite in a fighter cool is bloody hard work and they can, and often do, overheat pretty quickly if active for extended periods. But then you'd know all that as you're so sure you're correct you must have all the facts at your disposal. ;)

 

More modern systems are pretty damn clever, and can take measures against emitters not in STT, but only in very specific circumstances as determined by the software, config, and threat libraries loaded at the time.

 

But hey, what do I know?

[Frostie]

Well GG is, for the most part, correct. You are not correct at all.

 

More modern systems are pretty damn clever, and can take measures against emitters not in STT, but only in very specific circumstances as determined by the software, config, and threat libraries loaded at the time.

 

So they do then. :music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

But not on anything modeled in game. Maybe when the EF-2000 comes out for DCS, then you have a case. Until then, you don't.

 

So they do then. :music_whistling:

[Frostie]

But not on anything modeled in game. Maybe when the EF-2000 comes out for DCS, then you have a case. Until then, you don't.

Su-30 and Su-34 can carry Knirti SAP-518 and SAP-14 combined, supposed equivalent of AN/ALQ-99, basically DRFM support and as hot as it gets.

[GGTharos]

Are you in danger of flying a Su-30 or Su-34 in this game?

 

Su-30 and Su-34 can carry Knirti SAP-518 and SAP-14 combined, supposed equivalent of AN/ALQ-99, basically DRFM support and as hot as it gets.

[Frostie]

Are you in danger of flying a Su-30 or Su-34 in this game?

No, but the SAP-518 is a progression from the SPS-171 / L005S Sorbtsiya that the Su-27 uses. The use of twin pods, one operating as forward and one aft steerable wideband phased arrays, is the same idea as used on the Typhoon.