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F-15 Radar


STRIKER
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Hey Folks,

 

Been meaning to write this post for a long time now and I guess I am finally doing it so here it goes. As an USAF Avionics guy I have had the pleasure of working with some great and not so great equipment. Working with this equipment and then seeing alot of it in lockon with it in action has really frustrated me especially as of late regarding the F-15's radar capabilites. First off, I know its a game and the developers tried to represent its capablilites but they certainly didnt hit close to the mark in my opinion. Dont know the exact reasons but regardless at this point I am just thankful that the F-15 radar is kick butt in RL rather than what LOMAC makes it instead of visa versa. My suggestion to LOMAC is if they wish to make the Eagles radar less accurate than in RL then just say so, that way it makes sense to those who actually work on it and really know its true capabilities. If they want to gain any true sense of realism then they need to take heed of a few things...obviously the following is off official pubs since I cannot dispose of any sensitive info.

 

1. Even if you are tracking HOJ you still can determine if its a friend of foe. Heck, regardless of HOJ period, you lock up a friendly and your HUD should show an X over the target box....thats what IFF is for, and the newer APG-63 does it on its own regardless of the IFF transponder these days.

 

From public resources http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm

and http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-15-design.htm

 

"The F-15's versatile pulse-Doppler radar system can look up at high-flying targets and down at low-flying targets without being confused by ground clutter. It can detect and track aircraft and small high-speed targets at distances beyond visual range down to close range, and at altitudes down to tree-top level. The radar feeds target information into the central computer for effective weapons delivery. For close-in dog fights, the radar automatically acquires enemy aircraft, and this information is projected on the head-up display."

 

2. The 20 mile disappearing act! Thats right, funny how 90% of the time when Im tracking a guy around 15-20 miles my contact usually go off my scope for no apparent reason, I then scan like crazy and ironically find them most of the time visually in sight right around my nose. Especially when you pretty much go boresight on the guy cause he is so close in and yet your radar still didnt pick him up before that. Seconds in a dogfight count so much that these problems continue to get me and others killed due to us looking out the window for a visual.

 

More quotes and remember, this is the older version, the newer radars AN/APG-63(v1/v2) are even a heck of alot better

 

"The AN/APG-63 radar is a highly flexible, all-weather multimode radar. The APG-63 radar combines long range acquisition and attack capabilities with automatic features to provide the instant information and computations needed during air-to-air and air-to-surface combat. The APG-63 has been operational since 1973. In 1979, it was the first airborne radar to incorporate a software programmable signal processor. The PSP allows the system to quickly respond to new tactics or accommodate improved modes and weapons through software reprogramming rather than by extensive hardware retrofit. The APG-63 is no longer in production but remains in service. Almost 1,000 APG-63s had been delivered when production ended in 1986. About 700 are still operational in F-15As, Bs, and early model Cs and Ds operated by the U.S. Air Force and the air forces of Israel, Japan, and Saudi Arabia."

 

My two cents. Will I still fly LOMAC, absolutely! Its still the best online flight sim out there in my opinion but it cant hurt for a few improvements! Regardless, hats off to ED...thanks for stickin with LOMAC!

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Nice post and well said ! The F-15 might be the least lethal bird in the game right now. It's primarily a SU25 sim I believe, but they shouldn't keep picking away at the F-15 to improve the other airplanes. It is the best sim around, still exciting to fly formations online and have it look so real, but as a fighter online .. the 15 is a death trap. To show how bad the radar is, me and a friend conducted an experiment online with slammers. We basically just kept shooting at one another and we could easily spoof everything ... until, we fired the slammers with the radar turned off, then we started getting some hits. Pretty bad when the missile stands a better chance without radar guidance !!!

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Extremely well timed and pertinent thread. The ECM IFF is of particular interest to all F-15 drivers like me. That would solve every issue with Online ECM madness. I Always wondered why Russian birds had it and not the F-15. After all wester Avionics ARE superior.

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I got 5-1 k/d's against fighters last night ... pure AMRAAMage. With radar guidance.

 

I'll point out that -some- of what you're asking for is ridiculously vague, so don't get me wrong, I'm on your side and I want more stuff for the 15 too.

 

That's like telling me to implement a program that does quantum physics simulation.

 

Honestly, I couldn't tell you where to start - and not because I don't know quantum Physics, but BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING.

 

What it is that you want this radar to do? What parameters would you like it to simulate that it doesn't, to make tracking better etc?

 

Or is that classified? In that case, why make the request since there's no way to obtain data for it?

 

 

PS: Some form of explanation as to why things are modelled as they are to follow sometime later.

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I think he was perfectly clear with Friend or Foe ECM just like the russian birds have (with oviously different simbology) And the disapearing act at 20 miles. Seem pretty straight forward to me, or maybe its just my bad english making me see things that arent there. ;)

 

I got 5-1 k/d's against fighters last night ... pure AMRAAMage. With radar guidance.

 

You must have donne that with Noobs. :p its impossible to do that or any multiengagement shot with people who know what they are doing especialy with ECM on. Either we hope they dont turn ECM on or we do HOJ shot, praying it isnt a team mate. HOJ burn through range seem to be too short, Now we have to wait under 10 miles?! thats waht I've seen. The Russian birds always have confirmation of IFF and shoot much before we even know who they are.

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That's like telling me to implement a program that does quantum physics simulation.

 

Honestly, I couldn't tell you where to start - and not because I don't know quantum Physics, but BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING.

Well as the guy stated... he cant really tell you anything.

 

He didn't tell you anything? He just gave two good descriptive deficiences... descriptive isn't everything one needs for the word we love, realism, but it is enough to fake it! ... faking the proverbial "it" has been done in Falcon 4, Janes ...etc etc

 

_____________________________________________________

 

Ok if i could get a little off topic...

 

Listen... I have heard from very reliable sources that the Mirage 2000 has shields (almost just like Star Trek) and really only fail when the warp core gets a little low... I want to see it SOON!! lol

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You must have donne that with Noobs. :p its impossible to do that or any multiengagement shot with people who know what they are doing especisly with ECM on. Either we hope they dont turn ECM on or we do HOJ shot, praying it isnt a team mate.

 

I don't think it was a multi-engagement: LOMAC's F-15 still does not support TWS operation against jamming targets AFAIK. You automatically go into STT if you bug an ECM target with TWS.

 

And I've never seen the disappearing at 20 nm act either. As long as you get the elevation range right (which is quite narrow at closer ranges), you should be able to pick your target up. Try reducing azimuth to get faster target updates.

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I got 5-1 k/d's against fighters last night ... pure AMRAAMage. With radar guidance.

 

I'll point out that -some- of what you're asking for is ridiculously vague, so don't get me wrong, I'm on your side and I want more stuff for the 15 too.

 

That's like telling me to implement a program that does quantum physics simulation.

 

Honestly, I couldn't tell you where to start - and not because I don't know quantum Physics, but BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING.

 

What it is that you want this radar to do? What parameters would you like it to simulate that it doesn't, to make tracking better etc?

 

Or is that classified? In that case, why make the request since there's no way to obtain data for it?

 

 

PS: Some form of explanation as to why things are modelled as they are to follow sometime later.

 

You did not have 5 kills, you had 4 1/2 as one of them was me !!!! I'm an easy kill .. you don't get full credit for that one ! lol

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I don't think it was a multi-engagement: LOMAC's F-15 still does not support TWS operation against jamming targets AFAIK. You automatically go into STT if you bug an ECM target with TWS.

 

I know that! I mean you cant do multiengagement shots now because its impossible with everyone on ECM. Its too late for such by the time we can burn through.

 

And I've never seen the disappearing at 20 nm act either. As long as you get the elevation range right (which is quite narrow at closer ranges), you should be able to pick your target up. Try reducing azimuth to get faster target updates.

 

If your high and your target flies down the weeds, there will be a time that the games algos determines that the angle of displacement downwords should produce more clutter than the radar energy reflected at that distance allows to sort. If he turns its all the worse.

 

I managed to live with that, but now its realy impossible to track anyone at a reasonable distance. We are shot at much before.

 

I hope you dont interpret this as ranting Im just telling my impressions. I know the radar properties ingame wont be changed, I just hope a slight adjustment can be donne to minimize this.

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Ah darn ;)

 

In any case, I've made my point, and quite frankly the 'faking' part doesn't cut here, when there are aircraft from opposing sides to simulate.

 

I know most of you guys don't try to read the russian forums - but there's ven more whining there than here. Heck, some wanted to boycott the patch just because the F-15 is mentioned more times in the fix list than russian planes.

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Ah darn ;)

 

I know most of you guys don't try to read the russian forums - but there's ven more whining there than here. Heck, some wanted to boycott the patch just because the F-15 is mentioned more times in the fix list than russian planes.

 

 

If whiners for the russian planes got the full realism of the aircraft standards simulated on LOMAC they wouldnt hit anything but thin air! ;)

 

It is dangerous to adjust things in the game to satisfy whiners, it would drag th sim into the science fiction side. :D

 

I would like to know what specificaly they are complaining about. The russian planes are better than before...

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And that's exactly why ED is very careful. There is also the fact that they have a LOT of work on their hands with 1.2, and no time for radar work etc ... Ka-50 is the priority, and that has been said, and repeated over and over again.

 

They tried pretty hard with the missiles, and they'll still work on stuff, but there are priorities.

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BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING.

 

Maybe you don't want to see anything.

 

The F-15 has IFF even for a jamming bandit

 

The F-15 has good look down capability

 

The F-15 doesn't drop locks or have trouble picking up bandits for no apparent reason

 

 

 

Someone should simply tell the Russian whiners that the 15 is mentioned so many times because so many things were taken away from the 15.

 

And screw the black shark.

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Maybe you don't want to see anything.

 

Or maybe you don't get it.

 

The F-15 has IFF even for a jamming bandit

 

That was pretty clear. Source?

 

The F-15 has good look down capability

 

What's 'good' look down capability? What's 'bad' look down capability?

 

The F-15 doesn't drop locks or have trouble picking up bandits for no apparent reason

 

Because you're flown one, right? I haven't run into a case of a dropped lock yet that had no explanation, but I'm sure that I may. We'll see.

 

Someone should simply tell the Russian whiners that the 15 is mentioned so many times because so many things were taken away from the 15.

 

And screw the black shark.

 

You can screw whatever you like :) The Ka-50 is priority.

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STRIKER IS a source. The man works with the avionics in question. He can't divulge secret information but he can quote the public information that illustrates the undermodelling of the LOMAC F-15 avionics.

 

If we're limiting this thread to people who have flown the F-15, you wouldn't be posting here either, GG.

 

STRIKER knows more about F-15 avionics than you, GG.

 

Maybe you don't get that.

 

 

I have no intention of fencing with you about this.

 

And for God's sake, someone tell Pilotasso that Russian birds don't have IFF with an HOJ lock.

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And I bet you a Russian avionics guy can produce very similar quotes about the Russian radars. It simply doesn't mean anything at all. There are no false negative rates, no false positive rates, no range numbers, nothing.

 

The only thing that's concice is the HoJ tracking.

 

The rest is 'look, it shbould work better because this blurb makes it sound so great'.

 

I mean, seriously ... would you go on on something like this as a sysems modelling programmer?

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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And I bet you a Russian avionics guy can produce very similar quotes about the Russian radars. It simply doesn't mean anything at all. There are no false negative rates, no false positive rates, no range numbers, nothing.

 

I'll take that bet GGTharos. Just let let me know his name and where he is stationed or was stationed and that would be great, thanks. Does your follow on remark about "simply doesnt mean anything at all" refer to my knowledge or what I have to say for a professional opinion?

 

Do you honestly think I or anyone else that works these things would release actual f15 radar numbers to the public...are you insane. Its sensitive info and its my job to ensure it stays that way.

 

You know at the end of the day its just a game. Will it ever be the same as in RL, no way....can it be close to where we all have a good time and feel its semi-realistic....absolutely! I voiced a honest and professional opinion and if people dont want to take it thats fine with me...their loss.

 

Working together and respecting others even although we might severely disagree is what makes the LOMAC community great and fortunately most people in here do that...hence why I am here.

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IMO how I see it if your Russian then red birds are not upto scratch and viceversa if your American.

 

Someone posted earlier ,sorry I forget who, that if this continues your going to end up with a science fiction sim.

 

Stats pages have proved that no plane is vastly superior to the other and IMO thats how it should be. This has been done time and time again but in reality SUs v 29Cs v F15s have never occured inreal warfare so how can so many people know whats what?

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I'll take that bet GGTharos. Just let let me know his name and where he is stationed or was stationed and that would be great, thanks. Does your follow on remark about "simply doesnt mean anything at all" refer to my knowledge or what I have to say for a professional opinion?

 

No, it refers specifically to the fact that there is no modellable info in those quotes.

 

Do you honestly think I or anyone else that works these things would release actual f15 radar numbers to the public...are you insane. Its sensitive info and its my job to ensure it stays that way.

 

Uh, duh. On the other hand, do you expect someone to guess how it works from what you've provided?

 

You know at the end of the day its just a game. Will it ever be the same as in RL, no way....can it be close to where we all have a good time and feel its semi-realistic....absolutely! I voiced a honest and professional opinion and if people dont want to take it thats fine with me...their loss.

 

I certainly don't have a problem with you voicing your opinion. You say it's udnermodelled? Sure, I agree. Can you provide specific ways to model it more up to par? No? Then please don't misunderstand, but your opinion stays just that and is otherwise not useful.

The only useful tidbid was about the HoJ, which, if implemented undoubtedly many people will thank you for (aside form the fact that jammers aren't implemented all that well right now, nor is HoJ - from what I've heard anyway)

 

Working together and respecting others even although we might severely disagree is what makes the LOMAC community great and fortunately most people in here do that...hence why I am here.

 

But I don't disagree with you. A number of people have made very conrete suggestions on how to improve the F-15's radar in the beta forums, and they too have produced publically available information to support it. The problem here is that you only provided what amounts to an advertising blurb in your quotes ... seriously, read'em again. They sound like a car commercial. It drives great, sure. It's just that we won't tell ya the mileage or top speed or anything else.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I think you are missing the overal point here. If I could go into more depth on this subject and answer your questions and then we would be moving into the "sensitive" side of things and I cant do that. Take my word or leave it....I stop there. I also would like to refer back to my first two very clear points wrong with the radar. Again take it or leave it but if you fix those two issues thats a start. We can go back and forth all day on this my friend but we will go nowhere with your line of questions.

 

Oh, and I'm waiting on that Russian avionics guy's quote that you promised. Thanks,

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Hey, it's very simple ... if it's 'sensitive' then it can't be modelled since the people who would have to model it can't know about it, right? :)

 

Point #1: Already implemented as far as I can see. Since you can't say -what- about it should be different then there's nothing to change. The F-15 does have look down, it can acquire targets in BVR in look-down, and it can also use auto-ACQ modes in dogfights. So, what's wrong? What's there to fix?

Insofar as the HoJ and IFF goes, yes, everyone wants that. WHEN we'll get it? I don't know ;)

 

Point #2: Haven't experienced it myself, but I'm looking for it. So far I only lose contacts who start jamming, enter the notch or leave the radar's scan zone limits.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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