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Old 11-10-2016, 11:38 PM   #3331
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That having been said the F-18 has it's advantages in a fight with the F-14, and vice versa, the F-14 having the better STR & climb rate, whilst the F-18 has its extreme nose authority and I would assume a similar ITR. But the F-18 is NOT the F-35, the F-18 most likely possesses both a higher ITR & STR over the F-35 at the most common dogfighting speeds, which after a few passes usually stabilise themselves around M 0.6.
...After a few passes...

That assumption is what makes or breaks your entire argument.

I'm leaning towards breaks, tbh.

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god forbid r&d professionals actually know more about designing aircraft than internet armchair bfmers
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:41 PM   #3332
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...After a few passes...

That assumption is what makes or breaks your entire argument.

I'm leaning towards breaks, tbh.
Elaborate?

Are you saying that in WVR dogfights a few circles are not common? esp. when multiple opponents are facing off...
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:46 PM   #3333
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Problems start arising if electronic countermeasures catch up however, then all of a sudden we're back to having to maneuver the aircraft into a firing position to make the kill.
I suppose it is just as well that the F35 probably has the most sophisticated EW suite of any tactical fighter either current or planned...

Look, you always have to "maneuver" the aircraft into a firing position to make a kill - BFM is just one way (and not a very good one anymore) to get there. The race between missiles and countermeasures is a constant one. If the US reached the point where enemy countermeasures had the upper hand to the point of rendering BVR weapons useless, then it is not a given that they'd simply fall back into BFM dogfighting of all things (!?). There are many ways to approach modern day WVR combat, and post merge BFM is just one of them.

It's far more likely that they'd invest in (short term) tactical adjustments to leverage the F35s VLO and sensor advantages in tandem with the US' monstrous ISR capability/footprint to prevent neutral merges from occurring in the first place, and by investing in more capable AAMs/guidance packages in the medium term to reclaim the ability to reliably kill from a distance.

At any rate, the above is a very vague and arbitrary hypothetical. There is very little real world data to suggest it will come to pass in the foreseeable future and there is a HUGE amount of investment occurring across the board in the US military to ensure it never does.

Last edited by Boagrius; 11-11-2016 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:55 PM   #3334
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Elaborate?

Are you saying that in WVR dogfights a few circles are not common? esp. when multiple opponents are facing off...
"Lightning 1 Pitbull times two." "Lightning kill two ship F-18 bulls xxx/xx (...)"

Or, heck, drop the BVR weapons and just focus on pre-merge stuff and pilots that don't commit to neutral merges like us flight sim types!

Edit: Also, as for my above post, I should have said "Those assumptions make or break (...)" ---> There's quite a few assumptions in there that IMHO create a very unlikely scenario. (or multiple unlikely scenarios)

This goes for every scenario you have listed - You keep saying "this turns like that" but you're ignoring how you've gotten to that turn fight - That is where all the fun happens IMO.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:49 AM   #3335
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"Lightning 1 Pitbull times two." "Lightning kill two ship F-18 bulls xxx/xx (...)"

Or, heck, drop the BVR weapons and just focus on pre-merge stuff and pilots that don't commit to neutral merges like us flight sim types!

Edit: Also, as for my above post, I should have said "Those assumptions make or break (...)" ---> There's quite a few assumptions in there that IMHO create a very unlikely scenario. (or multiple unlikely scenarios)

This goes for every scenario you have listed - You keep saying "this turns like that" but you're ignoring how you've gotten to that turn fight - That is where all the fun happens IMO.
Sweep is spot on. There are a long list of things that would need to go very wrong before an adversary could render the AIM120D so impotent (nevermind whatever replaces it!). Unlike the simplified modelling shown for the B/C versions in DCS, the D model can be guided to a target via a variety of means (and sources of targeting data) that would all need to be systematically defeated first (unlikely).

Even if the enemy turns up with "really good ECM" there are an abundance of BVR/pre merge techniques that could be employed by such a VLO aircraft before simply saying "welp, the slammers ain't workin folks - someone crank up the Kenny Loggins cuz it's dogfightin time!"

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Old 11-11-2016, 01:23 AM   #3336
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Originally Posted by Sweep View Post
"Lightning 1 Pitbull times two." "Lightning kill two ship F-18 bulls xxx/xx (...)"

Or, heck, drop the BVR weapons and just focus on pre-merge stuff and pilots that don't commit to neutral merges like us flight sim types!

Edit: Also, as for my above post, I should have said "Those assumptions make or break (...)" ---> There's quite a few assumptions in there that IMHO create a very unlikely scenario. (or multiple unlikely scenarios)
What assumptions?

The only assumptions I've made have been in regards to the F-35's kinematic performance, which is all any of us can do about the F-35, good or bad, we assume.

I'm trying come at this from both angles however, having also pointed out that maneuverability may not matter, however in a situation where it does matter I'm worried about the F-35's chances.

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This goes for every scenario you have listed - You keep saying "this turns like that" but you're ignoring how you've gotten to that turn fight - That is where all the fun happens IMO.
What do you mean?

Remember all I've done is put forth the hypothetical scenario that a WVR engagement happens after either a failed attempt at BVR.

Last edited by Hummingbird; 11-11-2016 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:38 AM   #3337
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Look, you can look at a Su-35 that ran out of guns if you want to look at the worst, what he's saying is that it shouldn't happen under any circumstances and with any 10% decent pilot.
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:47 AM   #3338
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Look, you can look at a Su-35 that ran out of guns if you want to look at the worst, what he's saying is that it shouldn't happen under any circumstances and with any 10% decent pilot.
The pilot isn't the issue, it's wether or not the sensors will be able to provide the advantage hoped for. If they do we're good, the F-35 is golden and future fighters wont need much in the way of maneuverability, it will be mostly about the sensors.

However if countermeasure technology, both electronic and infrared, progresses to a point where the above wont always be the case, then problems will arise.

I'm sure this fact isn't lost on the R&D guys either, which is why the F-22 is there and a restart of the production is even considered. The F-35 is the strike aircraft that is supposed to be able to easily deal with any 4th gen fighter threat on top, however throw in some 5th gen opponents and suddenly the F-22 and its superior kinematic performance might become a necessity.

Last edited by Hummingbird; 11-11-2016 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:53 AM   #3339
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Remember all I've done is put forth the hypothetical scenario that a WVR engagement happens after either a failed attempt at BVR.
Again, even a "failed attempt at BVR" does not necessitate a subsequent BFM or even WVR engagement. The F35 crews can crank away to attempt a Grinder type maneuver, go to EMCON and extend out/disengage entirely, call in support from nearby flights, close to WVR and gun down an opponent that has spent all its energy defeating slammers... the list goes on (and none of them involve the post merge). Nobody is actually saying maneuverability doesn't matter - just that getting bogged down by using it in a knife fight isn't smart anymore. To conflate the F35's BFM characteristics with its overall air to air combat capability is a fairly significant error to be frank with you.

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The F-35 is the strike aircraft that is supposed to be able to easily deal with any 4th gen fighter threat on top, however throw in some 5th gen opponents and suddenly the F-22 and its superior kinematic performance might become a necessity.
The only 5th gen competitors out there to the F35 are the T50, J31 and J20. All of them have plenty of hurdles to overcome themselves before they're likely to meet an F35 flight in the air and yet none of them exhibit the same level of signals management sophistication as the F35, with the same being true of their sensor and EW suites. To surmise that they instantly necessitate "Raptor intervention" purely by virtue of being 5th gen jets is a hell of a stretch.

Ultimately we're talking about very unlikely contingencies here. It's like saying "what if enemy troops carry such good body armour that our 5.56 rounds can't kill them... we'll have to go hand to hand with our combat knives!". It's just not likely or true...

Last edited by Boagrius; 11-11-2016 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:20 AM   #3340
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Boagrius,

I think I'm being misunderstood here as talking about tomorrow when I'm not. The F-35 is planned to be the main fighter in service with many countries for many decades to come, and it is within this period I am concerned wether or not stealth & ECM might evolve to the point where not only will visual confirmation be necessary before opening fire, but the selection of effective weapons are reduced to close range ones necessating a tail chase.

It's all hypothetical, but we've seen first hand what bad things could happen when you rely too much on one thing - which again is not saying it's a guarantee it will.

Last edited by Hummingbird; 11-11-2016 at 02:51 AM.
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