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[FIXED INTERNALLY] Wind not accounted for in flight model and display.


bkthunder

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From one of the points in the latest mini-update:

 

- Wind is better accounted for in the flight model and displayed air speeds.

 

 

What does it mean exactly? The problem with the F-16 and F-5, as reported here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=260650 is that the wind *is* accounted for, which it totally shouldn't!

 

 

I hope it means that you are actually fixing the FM and making sure that no matter how much wind there is, this has 0 effect on the flight model except during take-off and landing.

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Well if wind has zero effect on the flight FM then we would have another problem.

 

Even if you dont crash because of e.g. strong head wind (as long as you are not to slow and wind changes its strength for example) you still have drift and the nose of the plane moves inside of the wind direction.

 

And even if you only want to be affected at landing or start, when exactly begins the landing and when exactly ends the take off?

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And even if you only want to be affected at landing or start, when exactly begins the landing and when exactly ends the take off?

 

The only time steady state wind should effect an aircraft on takeoff or landing is when the wheels are in contact with the ground. As soon as the wheels leave the ground on takeoff the aircraft isn’t influenced by how the earth below it is moving.

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The only time steady state wind should effect an aircraft on takeoff or landing is when the wheels are in contact with the ground. As soon as the wheels leave the ground on takeoff the aircraft isn’t influenced by how the earth below it is moving.

 

This.

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Well if wind has zero effect on the flight FM then we would have another problem.

 

Even if you dont crash because of e.g. strong head wind (as long as you are not to slow and wind changes its strength for example) you still have drift and the nose of the plane moves inside of the wind direction.

 

And even if you only want to be affected at landing or start, when exactly begins the landing and when exactly ends the take off?

 

Suggest you read up on the matter, it seems that this is a very hard concept to grasp for a lot of people here, but wind does not affect an airplane (or helicopter, or baloon or else) in ANY way except when in contact with the ground.

 

So in fact the problem we are having is the wind does affect the FM while in flight, which is a massive, massive bug, the proportions of which can hardly be explained being this a high fidelity flight sim.

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landing begins as the tires touch the ground as the plane stops its movements with sidewinds, which creates side wind forces.

 

Takeoff ends when sidewind forces are negligible. This point is reached, when the plane has no relative movement to the wind anymore, except its forward airspeed.

 

Therefore only changes in wind direction and wind speed, locally or temporally, should have an influence on the flight model and cause shaking and loss or gain in altitute and airspeed. The reason is simply acceleration of the plane due to wind changes, as the plane inertia cannot react to wind changes as quickly as the wind itself. This can be significant, f.e. when you take off with high vertical speed through a windfield with increasing wind speed with altitude, which is a common setting in DCS (pg blueflag server is a good example: wind kicks in about 16k ft and reaches almost 60knots in about 25k ft). In a stable non-accelerated windfield a plane should not fly differently. Only ground speed and ground heading should be affected.

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Wind _does_ affect an airplane in-flight. The effect is most noticeable when you’re on or near the ground but it obviously affects the aircraft at any speed and altitude. A plane is like a boat... Just imagine what a captain of a boat would have to do in order to stay the course if he faced strong currents.

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But a boat also has no clue if the water is moving or not, unless the boat has a GPS to measure "ground speed". Of course a boat and a plane need to correct their flight path to keep their course relative to the ground, but that does not mean a plane or boat is receiving side-forces all the time...they dont

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We fixed interaction between wind and flight model. There were some errors and we fixed them.

 

This is all we needed to hear. Thank you Cofcorpse for confirming and great news! :thumbup:

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I think the wind affects once in the air, but it depends, and I don't talk about wind gusts. It depends on: wind speed/direction, exposed surface and weight of the aircraft. I believe that this is clearer to the reader.

 

So absolutely the wind must and can affects the FM

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Wind _does_ affect an airplane in-flight. The effect is most noticeable when you’re on or near the ground but it obviously affects the aircraft at any speed and altitude. A plane is like a boat... Just imagine what a captain of a boat would have to do in order to stay the course if he faced strong currents.

 

Sorry, this is not true. Wind only affects ground track and ground speed, nothing else.

That's why you use *air speed* rather than ground speed for anything that concerns flight performance.

 

A Cessna would be perfectly at ease flying at 120 kts indicated airspeed in a 300kt jet stream, wouldn't make a difference if not for groundspeed.

 

Furthermore, we could say there is actually no such thing as wind, rather, there are masses of air that move across the globe. You only feel the wind if you are fixed on the ground and such airmass is passing, but if you were floating inside the airmass itself the relative speed would be 0, because you are being carried by it. It's as if you were walking inside a train. The train is the airmass, your walking speed is the indicated airspeed.

That's exactly the relationship there is between any aircraft and wind.

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I think the wind affects once in the air, but it depends, and I don't talk about wind gusts. It depends on: wind speed/direction, exposed surface and weight of the aircraft. I believe that this is clearer to the reader.

 

So absolutely the wind must and can affects the FM

 

Guys really, please, read up on it. It's pretty basic knowledge for aviation enthusiasts and wannabe pilots. There really is nothing to disccus here, it's simple physics.

 

Here is a good explanation https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/move3.html

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Sorry, this is not true. Wind only affects ground track and ground speed, nothing else.

That's why you use *air speed* rather than ground speed for anything that concerns flight performance.

 

A Cessna would be perfectly at ease flying at 120 kts indicated airspeed in a 300kt jet stream, wouldn't make a difference if not for groundspeed.

 

Furthermore, we could say there is actually no such thing as wind, rather, there are masses of air that move across the globe. You only feel the wind if you are fixed on the ground and such airmass is passing, but if you were floating inside the airmass itself the relative speed would be 0, because you are being carried by it. It's as if you were walking inside a train. The train is the airmass, your walking speed is the indicated airspeed.

That's exactly the relationship there is between any aircraft and wind.

 

 

Objection, your honor. The inertia comes into play. Lets say your aircraft has a stall speed of 70kts. Now you fly your aircraft at 100kts in a 50kts laminar headwind, guess what happens when you perform a 180° turn, if you perform that turn quickly, but without changing your pitch.

 

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Winds aloft totally affect aircraft's ETA toward their destination. Winds lower to the ground also affect aircraft, by creating compression at the RWY THD for landing for a flow of aircraft, affecting their safe separation as they land.

 

Those things should be rightfully considered in DCS as well. So kudos for ED if this is what they're talking about.

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As I understand, you consider wind as navigational thing. In simulation we can roughly divide flight model to two parts - material point (which uses ground speed) and aerodynamic forces (which use airspeed). If one of the parts use incorrect speed, total result will be wrong.

I hope this brief explanation will clarify situtation a bit.

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Guys really, please, read up on it. It's pretty basic knowledge for aviation enthusiasts and wannabe pilots. There really is nothing to disccus here, it's simple physics

 

I'm pretty well versed on aerodynamics, thank you very much... ????

 

The wind is just a vector being added to the aerodynamic forces on an aircraft. It affects the amount of sideslip required, lift produced and a host of other effects. It determines not only groundspeed and track but also the performance of the aircraft. The effects may have been exaggerated somewhat in DCS (and I assume that is what they tweaked) but it certainly affects all aspects of the FM. On the ground and in the air.

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Guys really, please, read up on it. It's pretty basic knowledge for aviation enthusiasts and wannabe pilots. There really is nothing to disccus here, it's simple physics.

Here is a good explanation https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/move3.html

I believe you are confusing yourself or people have not understood what you mean. The bug you found is correct but your claim that the wind would not affect an airplane in flight is wrong. It is also easy to see, just search on youtube crosswind landing to understand. And yes I'm not talking about gusts of wind but of continuous wind.

Let me explain some concepts. Relative speed, absolute speed etc ... are not the point, these are only useful considerations for the pilot to understand how he has to pilot. The wind affects the flight model simply because it is a mass of air that hits an object, even if in a constant way, it will inevitably interact with it.

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I believe you are confusing yourself or people have not understood what you mean. The bug you found is correct but your claim that the wind would not affect an airplane in flight is wrong. It is also easy to see, just search on youtube crosswind landing to understand. And yes I'm not talking about gusts of wind but of continuous wind.

Let me explain some concepts. Relative speed, absolute speed etc ... are not the point, these are only useful considerations for the pilot to understand how he has to pilot. The wind affects the flight model simply because it is a mass of air that hits an object, even if in a constant way, it will inevitably interact with it.

 

No... constant wind doesn’t effect the way an aircraft flies once it’s airborne. It effects the ground track and ground speed but it doesn’t effect any other aspects of the flight model as was seen earlier with the F-16. Turbulence and changes in the wind speed/direction of course effect the aircraft but constant wind doesn’t.

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Objection, your honor. The inertia comes into play. Lets say your aircraft has a stall speed of 70kts. Now you fly your aircraft at 100kts in a 50kts laminar headwind, guess what happens when you perform a 180° turn, if you perform that turn quickly, but without changing your pitch.

Fox

You will stall

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No. You won’t. You’re looking at it from a reference frame of the ground... you need to look at it from the reference frame of the air you’re flying through as that’s what is producing your lift but is also what’s dictating your available forward speed. Your ground speed has no effect.


Edited by Deano87

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My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

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No... constant wind doesn’t effect the way an aircraft flies once it’s airborne. It effects the ground track and ground speed but it doesn’t effect any other aspects of the flight model as was seen earlier with the F-16. Turbulence and changes in the wind speed/direction of course effect the aircraft but constant wind doesn’t.

I wonder where you got this information from. it is simple physics or there must be a misunderstanding. When i say wind can affect the FM i mean something like this

 

470px-Crosswind_landing_crab-notext.svg.png

This is an example of how wind affects landing. Before the plane touches down the wind influences it, but when the wheels are anchored to the ground the wind no longer has the same effect. So the wind affects the aircraft when it is flying.


Edited by The Falcon
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