CAT I/III Loading

Hi!

Does the F-16 warn you when you put the CAT in the wrong position? I know the aircraft is still WIP. That's why I'm asking. Thank you!

Yep. it should through the "Caution Panel" => "STORES CONFIG" light.

Regards.

Compared to the other F16 sim, the DCS F16 seems very slow to roll in CAT III. Wonder which is more realistic.

 

At this time, there doesn't seem to be any point in flying with CAT III

I don't have the figure yet under the eyes .... but something you can try to start with, is to check the relation between CATI and CATIII

...

In CATI, maximum roll rate is commanded when:

- AOA <15°

- Airspeed > 250 knots

... note the roll rate you have in those conditions on a level flight (maybe TacView telemetry may help? ... but a stopwatch could also be enough.)

Then switch into CATIII, in the same AOA and airspeed conditions, resulting roll rate should be approximatively 60% of the CATI max roll rate.

It doesn't mean that CATI max roll rate is correct, but at least (if my understandings are correct) you can check that relationship between CATI & III are rather accurate.

But to be honest, I would rather ask a good friend about it who worked a lot on that subject ... I am a pilot, not an engineer.

Regards.

We have the no-kidding rate charts for CAT III and they match.

 

Thanks

...

Had few minutes free, so I did the test.

Track is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/phe2yckgp0xgq3z/Tacview-20191201-220944-DCS-F-16C%20-%20Caucasus%20-%20Takeoff.zip.rar?dl=0

Do not hesitate to do it on your side to confirm or invalidate my results.

- Starting the Quick Start , "Takeoff" mission.

- Ask Crew Chief to set my a/c empty (no loadout, full internal fuel).

- Taking off, and fly 5000ft/MSL to do the test between 450-500KCAS.

Stating a very gentle climb to compensate the resulting nose down attitude after the roll competed, stop pitch motion, then initial full roll deflection with no pitch inputs.

- Not counting the first 360° to let the roll rate properly establish at its max rate.

- Then count two complete 360°

Two set up in CAT I and two set up in CAT III.

CAT I : I count about 3s to perform 2x360° => 720/3 = 240°/s

CAT III : I count about 8s to perform 2x360° => 720/8 = 90°/s

TacView telemetry is giving roughly the same result by sowing a 215-225°/s during CATI set up. And 90°/s during CAT III set up. (TacVew may be not 100% either, at least, it is not on all sims).

...

NASA model don't include any CAT III evaluations, so I don't know which charts are mentioned (?) But to me, considering the -1, the described relationship between CAT I or III, we are not within the 40% of RRT reduction given by the -1.

...

I also did the same test in landing gain* by using the Man Flap Ext**. Results gives a higher RRT than in cruise gain in CAT III. Something around 120°/s. (?) ...

... ***

Note also that I had a huge pitch LCO (bug I guess?) with flaps manually extended around 700KCAS**.

Regards.

* EDIT: LG gain should be triggered by the LG handle down position rather than the landing gear position itself , and lollipop should lite on as soon as any of the LG doors are not closed and locked (not just when main MLG is in transfer).

** Manual flaps extension should not be possible above a given airspeed (don't have the figures in mind, I don't think it is a fixed value , rather a curve or a linear function.) But for sure, manual extension at +400 - 700KCAS should not be possible.

*** ... enough for today, I have to go to sleep.

Cheers.

Hi!

 

Yep. it should through the "Caution Panel" => "STORES CONFIG" light.

 

 

Regards.

Thank You! :thumbup:

We have the no-kidding rate charts for CAT III and they match.

 

Thanks

With all due respect, they do not match and the DCS Viper has a slow roll rate by ~69%. I'd expect to see closer to that ~169 degree roll rate in the CT2 config CAT III in the game but last night tried her out and certainly did not. I suggest reevaluating the CAT III roll rate parameters for DCS.

For the dudes playing DCS, you dont have to worry about over-G on your bombs and stuff so just leave the switch CAT I and dont worry about it. I'd rather them get everything in the ICP functional and just fly the jet CAT I in DCS with a full bomb load. The benefit of the game is, its a game and you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP.

The benefit of the game is, its a game and you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP.

Sorry, but that’s the primary reason I’m here. My expectation is that ED model overspeed/overweight/over G effects and the limitations various loadouts place on an aircraft. Such things are integral to a full fidelity simulation. Yes, currently you can fly around in Cat I without a care in the world, but you shouldn’t be able to (WIP I hope). There are much better games out there if I just wanted to *pew pew* all over the sky without worrying about aerodynamic loads, cockpit setup, or stores configurations.

I've asked our project lead to re-examine.

 

Thanks

Hello Wags !

Any news about that primary subject ?

Thanks.

... you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP.

At what speed would that happen?

Hi !

Any news on the CATIII roll rate ?

We are still stuck at about -60% roll rate reduction between CATI and CATIII instead of -40% (as per Dash-1). :joystick:

It's not a solid 40%. It's starts at 40% and then reduces further depending on speed, AoA and tailplane position.

Have you reached -40% in game ?

My yesterday test:

Level flight, 470knt IAS 6500ft, only full roll applied:

CATI=~225°/s

CATIII=~90°/s

--> -60%

Level flight, 300knt IAS 6500ft, only full roll applied:

CATI=~180°/s

CATIII=~73°/s

--> -60%

Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment?

Also the aircraft pitches down after putting the gear up during takeoff in cat 3 I didn't notice that in cat 1.

Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment?

 

 

Also the aircraft pitches down after putting the gear up during takeoff in cat 3 I didn't notice that in cat 1.

I did notice that it did that on some take offs, but never pegged it to CAT 1 or 3. Interesting discovery. I wonder if it's supposed to do that.

Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment?

AFAIK, there is nothing in the RL documentation about it. I am gonna ask a driver about it.

Is it confirmed that there's something strange with the CATIII roll rate? With my 20cm extension and full throw, my Viper rolls about as fast as a P-51 or P-47 in CATIII, but CATI responsiveness with AG stores/wing bags seems too high.

Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment?.

AFAIK, there is nothing in the RL documentation about it. I al gonna ask a driver about it.

Asked. Answered => (as expected) Is not supposed to be the case (is a bug).

...

 

NASA model don't include any CAT III evaluations, so I don't know which charts are mentioned (?) But to me, considering the -1, the described relationship between CAT I or III, we are not within the 40% of RRT reduction given by the -1.

 

...

 

The exact value can be found in the DFLCS block diagram.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4058809&postcount=3

The graph is too blurry and I cannot really tell if it's 130 or 134. But this value is exactly 40% of 324 deg/s, which is the maximum commandable roll rate in DFLCS.

Yes, I have flown other sims which had full fidelity CatI/III modeling and would light up the caution board if you over G'd. That might be a real challenge for new players. That level of realism will be welcome to the hardcore players.

... Caution light do not necessarily light up in case of over G. You may have non listed or non reported failures. (could be hung stores, bomb fuse arming wiring damaged ... etc ... airframe structural damage ... other ...)

Yes, I recall that now. And the crew chiefs would not be happy re-seating all those rivets.

I did some flying in CATIII recently and I dont think its necessarily off as whole. I believe where the issue lies is the 324 deg/sec roll rate.

Regardless of CATI/III, the INITIAL maximum roll rate should be 324 deg/sec.

After 90 degrees of roll, the system will reduce roll rate according to AOA or CAT condition. You may be in a clean jet but roll rate is reduced due to AOA or in a CATIII stores config and the roll rate is reduced due to loadout.

To me it feels as if the CATIII switch currently just cuts off 40% of roll rate without taking into consideration the initial roll rate.

Then again, the system may not be able to overcome the initial inertia needed to get a fully loaded CATIII config to roll 324 deg/sec through 90 degrees or may not be able to stop the inertia of the same CATIII config at that roll rate to reduce it sufficiently, hence a lower than 324 deg/sec initial roll rate.

I did some flying in CATIII recently and I dont think its necessarily off as whole. I believe where the issue lies is the 324 deg/sec roll rate.

 

Regardless of CATI/III, the INITIAL maximum roll rate should be 324 deg/sec.

 

After 90 degrees of roll, the system will reduce roll rate according to AOA or CAT condition. You may be in a clean jet but roll rate is reduced due to AOA or in a CATIII stores config and the roll rate is reduced due to loadout.

 

To me it feels as if the CATIII switch currently just cuts off 40% of roll rate without taking into consideration the initial roll rate.

 

Then again, the system may not be able to overcome the initial inertia needed to get a fully loaded CATIII config to roll 324 deg/sec through 90 degrees or may not be able to stop the inertia of the same CATIII config at that roll rate to reduce it sufficiently, hence a lower than 324 deg/sec initial roll rate.

I wonder where did you find that stuff about the initial 90degrees of roll?? As far as i am concerned CATIII would just cut roll rate with 40%.

@Bouli306

There is a wealth of information from back in the day, a website called Code One Magazine. Its been around since the late 90s at least. Way back in the day when I was flying Mac Falcon 4 lol.

An article called Semper Viper on that website is where the information was obtained long ago.

Its an excellent read, although the website doesnt publish the article in its entirety online, you can download a pdf copy. The only problem is the text isnt the easiest to read in the pdf file so long reading hurts the eyes.

Link here

https://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=174

The initial roll rate information is in the 14th paragraph down from the top.

Here is a download link for the pdf file

https://www.codeonemagazine.com/imag...49318_9999.pdf