Mirage Radar under rework

Our New coder is busy working on the Mirage Radar

New symbols and targets data elaboration.

Closing speed and target altitude will be included on new symbology

can we get more details ? what do the symbols mean ?

will we have closing speed number next to the "V" like we had before ?

Yes, could we get more info on the updated symbology ?

Nice to see some news ! keep the job going !

Will also TWS and IFF now implemented correctly?

More details will be given once the coders has completed the radar update :)

is this the update we'll get in the next OB ?

Will also TWS and IFF now implemented correctly?

TWS is already corrected, IFF is as good as allowed by DCS World right now.

Hi,

As shown on these photos, are we going to have the yellow color displayed on it ?

TWS is already corrected, IFF is as good as allowed by DCS World right now.

It is not.

TWS gives you now an as smooth tracking as a STT lock. Compare it to the Hornet and you see what I'm talking about. Thats technicaly a cheat in MP.

IFF is working like magic. Push the button and you get a response for all contacts on the radar withing a milisecond. Can't imagine that this would be correct. Either there could be no response from a contact, there could be a response where no contact is, and there should also be a "false" response if contacts are straight in line. Take a look at the Hornet or Tomcat and you will also see what I'm talking about.

No one cares what somebody imagine to develop a module.

Prove what you request on the Mirage, not with Hornet or Tomcat module. :

Radar pulse are traveling at speed of light and you have a 80Nm radar range. How long do you think it should take ?

Ask ED to "fix" IFF on FC3 fighters :music_whistling

It is not.

TWS gives you now an as smooth tracking as a STT lock. Compare it to the Hornet and you see what I'm talking about. Thats technicaly a cheat in MP.

The Hornet doesn't have TWS, it has LTWS which can have a very slow update interval on contacts (at 140 degrees, 6 bar, it's something like 10-15 seconds between sweeps of a specific spot). It also doesn't extrapolate the position of the target between detections (which it should be doing). The Hornet's TWS limits the scan volume to 2 bar 80 degrees or 4 bar 40 degrees or 6 bar 20 degrees - if you set that in LTWS, it'll give you an idea of how often the Hornet's TWS will update the contact's position and if you add in extrapolation in between detections, then it should be pretty smooth.

The TWS lock in the Mirage is as smooth and tracking the target as a STT lock is doing it. Without any "updates when the radar sweeps over the contact and interpolation in between). Its just tracking permanently.

The IFF is just magic at the moment. If you have three aircrafts lined up in a straigt and only the middle is friendly, it will show you only the middle as friendly. Technicaly, it should show you all three as friendly.

And it is technicaly not possible that it interrogates the whole area, receives an answer and shows that all within a milisecond.

I'm only refering to the Hornet and Tomcat because the Hornet is, so far, the only module with a TWS lock showing on the HUD is the Hornet, and showing how IFF interrogation works is the Tomcat. I'm talking about basic physics and name those just as easy to understand examples. Even the Hornet needs double the time for interrogating one aircraft then the Mirage needs for the whole airspace...

Btw, its up to Razbam to answer if they will fix that, not to you if you can't understand the problem.

The TWS lock in the Mirage is as smooth and tracking the target as a STT lock is doing it. Without any "updates when the radar sweeps over the contact and interpolation in between). Its just tracking permanently.

The IFF is just magic at the moment. If you have three aircrafts lined up in a straigt and only the middle is friendly, it will show you only the middle as friendly. Technicaly, it should show you all three as friendly.

 

I'm only refering to the Hornet and Tomcat because the Hornet is, so far, the only module with a TWS lock showing on the HUD is the Hornet, and showing how IFF interrogation works is the Tomcat. I'm talking about basic physics and name those just as easy to understand examples.

 

Btw, its up to Razbam to answer if they will fix that, not to you if you can't understand the problem.

We cannot compare the Hornet to the Mirage on radar modes as the Hornet is far from complete. See the post above yours!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Really? So please tell me, how it is possible that a TWS can produce a 100% accurate and smooth tracking of the target (like a STT lock) without triggering a RWR lock warning on the enemy RWR?

In TWS, the radar still needs to sweep and can update the position of the TWS contact only when it sweeps over it. What it is doing between those sweeps can only be interpolated. But the M2K is actually also tracking within those sweeps perfectly and not interpolating.

It can only track 100% smooth with a STT, but that would also trigger the RWR.

Really? So please tell me, how it is possible that a TWS can produce a 100% accurate and smooth tracking of the target (like a STT lock) without triggering a RWR lock warning on the enemy RWR?

 

In TWS, the radar still needs to sweep and can update the position of the TWS contact only when it sweeps over it. What it is doing between those sweeps can only be interpolated. But the M2K is actually also tracking within those sweeps perfectly and not interpolating.

It can only track 100% smooth with a STT, but that would also trigger the RWR.

TWS creates a trackfile of the contact (hence the T in TWS), which is the core difference to RWS and its submodes like LTWS (yes, LTWS is a submode of RWS, not of TWS!). The trackfile of the target has all the necessary information (speed, altitude, heading) to update the target automatically without a radar sweep passing over the target. That track gets pretty inaccurate over time oviously if no update from a radar sweep happens. TWS is one of my most wanted features for the Hornet, because that will enable us to fire multiple AMRAAMs at multiple targets at the same time (just like the Tomcats Phoenixes in TWS).

Really? So please tell me, how it is possible that a TWS can produce a 100% accurate and smooth tracking of the target (like a STT lock) without triggering a RWR lock warning on the enemy RWR?

 

In TWS, the radar still needs to sweep and can update the position of the TWS contact only when it sweeps over it. What it is doing between those sweeps can only be interpolated. But the M2K is actually also tracking within those sweeps perfectly and not interpolating.

It can only track 100% smooth with a STT, but that would also trigger the RWR.

All radars trigger RWR even when not painting it. The RWR is far more sensitive than radar at max detection range, giving a position of the radar to RWR before radar can detect anything, even less to get reliable tracking and even less to reliable lock.

DCS doesn't currently simulate radar operations correctly where you really are like waving flashlight in the dark and trying to spot where others are, while everyone in the dark will see clearly where you are with the flashlight.

We do not have unreliably way to build a track, high changes to lose a lock at longer ranges, no chaff interference, no wide angle notching filtering, no ground clutter echoes etc etc.

To say it more clearly:

I understand that the position of the target, between the radar is sweeping over it, is interpolated. Thats why it is showing more or less "smooth" on the HUD.

However, at the moment (in the M2K), the TWS target is tracked permanently and if it changes direction between the radar sweeps, it still gets tracked correctly and keep boxed in the HUD, while in reality, the box should move away from the target (because the box is moving as the target should move without any direction changes).

The target location can be interpolated between two sweeps, but it can only be updated with the real location when it sweeps over it.

When engaging WVR and useing TWS and the target is turning quite much, you should see that the target box in the HUD should get inaccurate and move away from the target quite fast (as it is not anymore moveing on the calculated way). When it gets swept over with the radar again, the box should be again spot on the target.

When flying with the F-14 and useing TWS, you can clearly see a correct TWS behavor. (On the radar, unfortuantely not on the HUD)

When useing the TWS in the Mirage, it looks like a STT behavor. (On the HDD and HUD, except that it does not triggers RWR CL warning and also shows other targets) As I said, more or less this is some kind of cheating.

Fri13:

I meant to trigger an continous lock warning.

Because it should not be possible to get a permanent smooth and correct tracking without triggering the continous lock warning.

To say it more clearly:

I understand that the position of the target, between the radar is sweeping over it, is interpolated. Thats why it is showing "smooth" on the HUD.

 

However, at the moment (in the M2K), the TWS target is tracked permanently and if it turns between the radar sweeps, it still gets tracked correctly and keep boxed in the HUD, while in reality, the box should move away from the target (as it should move without any direction changes).

Oh, I see what you mean now. That's indeed a good point. I'm not sure if and how TWS in the Mirage commands the radar antenna to a special scan pattern to update target information very rapidly. In the Tomcat that's what TWS AUTO is supposed to do. It will take control of the radar and will adjust the scan pattern to keep a good track of the TWS-locked target. I'm not sure how this works exactly and how the Mirage does it.

Edit: Btw, TWS contacts move smooth in other DCS aircraft (e.g. F-15) as well AFAIK. That's not saying this is correct behaviour, but if it's wrong, then it's not just wrong in the Mirage.

Honestly, I'm not really flying any FC3 aircrafts so I can't say much according to that.

LTWS in the F-18 shows the correct behavor, just without any calculation between sweeping over the target. But it shows the principal function of how it works. If it would (and will) then also calcualte the predicted flightpath between the sweeps, we will have TWS.

F-14 does not show anything on the HUD, and all other modules does not have (L)TWS.

So, unfortunately, we have not anymore to compare at the moment.

But when you just think about it, you will realize that it physicaly can't be true that there is a 100% smooth and 100% correct tracking while in TWS.

But thats what the Mirage does now.

However it has not to do so much with the AUTO function in the cat.

The Auto just moves the radar to keep the TWS lock in the middle of it.

But, the tomcat restricts the radar modes to 40° 2 bars or 20° 4 bars when in TWS to limit the time between sweeping over the same contact again to max. 2 seconds.

So the position of a TWS "lock" in the cat is only updated every two seconds.

Basicaly, it stays in RWS mode, only the computer calculates the predicted flightpath of a TWS contact / lock between sweeping over it.

So you see, a TWS contact / lock can't be 100% smooth and correct.

TWS creates a trackfile of the contact (hence the T in TWS), which is the core difference to RWS and RWS submodes like LTWS (yes, LTWS is a submode of RWS, not of TWS!). The trackfile of the target has all the necessary information (speed, altitude, heading) to update the target automatically without a radar sweep passing over the target. That track gets pretty inaccurate over time oviously if no update from a radar sweep happens.

The track goes more accurate in the time when tracking gate is getting smaller on every sweep (update) and so on prediction gate as well becomes smaller.

IIRC a hornet radar requires a 5-7 updates to get a good weapon quality lock for stationary yeast non-maneuvering target. But more accurate you are, then far more easily you drop the lock once target maneuvers slightly then, as your predicting gate size is so small. And then you need to start building track again from the start, losing lock (and so on missile).

Why you as target can perform two kind tactics against TWS.

1) keep flying straight and let the radar build very accurate track from you, where each sweep makes smaller and smaller probability gate for you to slip through with one change in heading, altitude or speed. Ie. Pull up to 45 degree and track is lost.

2) start maneuvering in large turns, sudden quick charges etc, and you force radar to have very wide and inaccurate track about you.

Doing either one will allow you to close up the radar by beating the longer launch capability, or even escape and be a difficult target to chase.

Maneuvering target can hold all missile launches to minimal range if radar operates in TWS, but much more difficult if in STT. But if radar updates in STT, toi can do other maneuvers like varying close formation and separation. As the radar can't lock target that is one target and then suddenly two and then again one.

Similar works against TWS as well, just much easier.

Why formation flying is important skill and tactic as you can deny and break the radar lock and track by simple formation flying and maneuvers until you are in visual range.

The Mirage basically uses the same radar code as the FC3 modules, which is incredibly simplified. I wouldn't expect it to transform into a high fidelity simulation of a radar like the Hornet or F-14 is - it's a module from before the Hornet's radar existed (which was ED's first attempt at simulating a real radar) and although Razbam are improving some parts of the Mirage, I don't think they've said anything about making the radar itself work more realistically.

The track goes...

Wow, thank you for all that information, very interesting.

The Mirage basically uses the same radar code as the FC3 modules.

No, this isn't true. And the Hornet radar development went through the same bugs as the Mirage 2000C RDI radar, like STT losing lock during crank manoeuvring.

No, this isn't true. And the Hornet radar development went through the same bugs as the Mirage 2000C RDI radar, like STT losing lock during crank manoeuvring.

Do you know that for sure? Its radar detection ranges are *exactly* the same as the F-15C and like it's been said, TWS behaves exactly the same. It's an awfully cosy coincidence if not.