Weapon employment summary (all correct?)

So far, the cat is quite complex when it comes to weapon delivery.

I tried now to summarize the different possibilities and would like to know of everything is correct so far?

Here is the link to the table:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vStWY-jyy7psdHer4Y525wYp14lyEF-DDQXtIkK8M-EuV7-rtWtIKFGLRL3_YlzwJJWSFsUp7A52Pq2/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

And here is a screenshot of the table:

Please consider this updated information for the Aim-9:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3894428&postcount=30

At the moment I'm not interested in updating the table.

There was little to no input from other users, and especially not from HB.

Also if you read trough the thread you will understand why I don't want to put in anymore time.

Good job. AIM-9 SEAM acquisition mode missing.

Thanks for this

I'd first consider distinguishing what should happen (real-life) compared to what is modeled in-game (most things).

To answer some of your questions in regards to AIM-54 + PD STT, refer to the following thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238762

In short, it should be SARH only but at the moment the AIM-54 works exactly like an AIM-120 until HB can get access to model it properly.

To answer some of your questions to the best of my knowledge:

• AIM54 + TWS + NORM = Once modeled, the AIM-54 needs to be commanded active first, but if it loses track once active it can fall-back to PD guidance.
   
  
• AIM54 + TWS + PH ACT = PH ACT forces the AIM54 to go maddog. So I don't see how the missile could be guided in TWS, let alone launched, as it's relying solely on it's own sensor from launch. Need to test that target WCS prioritization even occurs in PH ACT?!
   
  
• AIM54 + PD STT = see thread linked above and comments
   
  
• AIM54 + PD STT + PH ACT = again this is a maddog launch. If a target is tracked by the WCS, then it is towards that vector, otherwise along the ADL.
   
  
• AIM54 + P STT + NORM = maddog launch towards WCS tracked target
   
  
• AIM54 + P STT + BRSIT = maddog launch along ADL. Ignores WCS targeted target vector
   
  
• Your table needs additional rows for AIM54 + P STT + NORM/PHACT Vs NORM/BRSIT. In short, PH ACT commands active on launch and BRSIT (flood mode) ignores WCS tracked target.
   
  
• AIM7 + PD STT = yep correct
   
  
• AIM7 + P STT = yep correct
   
  
• AIM7 + P STT + SP PD = good question! I imagine SP PD would override P STT. What I'm unsure about it is that if transition between PD to P can sometimes lose the lock pre-launch, are you more likely to lose the track with this conflicting settings as the launch is occurring?
   
  
• AIM9 + NRM + ACM cover = this should ignore the WCS track vector as the ACM cover is essentially forcing BRSIT
   
  
• PLM, PAL, VSL = all P STT
  

Somewhat related, but transition from PD STT to P STT post-launch should lose the lock but again is not modeled yet:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3866269#post3866269

Anybody feel free to correct any of the above if I've made mistake.

Thanks for making this summary table!

Good work on this summary, thank you!

Good job. AIM-9 SEAM acquisition mode missing.

You are right, and also not *ggg*

I would not consider SEAM as a weapon guiding mode, it is just more or less a simple "uncage". Not sure if I wanna add it, I think changing "uncage" to "uncage and automaticaly activate SEAM" could also do it.

I'd first consider distinguishing what should happen (real-life) compared to what is modeled in-game (most things).

"What is happening" should stick to REAL LIFE, while "Notes" should point out if there is a generall, or temporary difference to DCS.

To answer some of your questions in regards to AIM-54 + PD STT, refer to the following thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238762

In short, it should be SARH only but at the moment the AIM-54 works exactly like an AIM-120 until HB can get access to model it properly.

I know your thread and it was very helpful.

Your consideration that the Aim-54 in PD STT should only be SARH but at the moment works like a Aim120 and goes active on its own is catched in my table under notes.

AIM54 + TWS + NORM = Once modeled, the AIM-54 needs to be commanded active first, but if it loses track once active it can fall-back to PD guidance.

True, but that also stands in my table. The question is, what happens if the WCS looses the track (not the seeker of the missile) while the missile is still passive? Does it go active? What if the WCS catches up the track again, will it then continue to guide the missile?

[*]AIM54 + TWS + PH ACT = PH ACT forces the AIM54 to go maddog. So I don't see how the missile could be guided in TWS, let alone launched, as it's relying solely on it's own sensor from launch. Need to test that target WCS prioritization even occurs in PH ACT?!

I would not really consider that Maddog. If the missile can't find a target with its own seeker, it falls back to the WCS TWS guiding. So it will still be guided towards the TWS target.

However, it is more or less a normal TWS fire, but it will not loft (because of going active instantly) and thats why it has a drastically reduced range.

I would guess, it gets guided by WCS until the seeker finds a target. It will then chase the first target it locks up. So maybe this sounds more like the "Aim-120 mode", or?

AIM54 + PD STT + PH ACT = again this is a maddog launch. If a target is tracked by the WCS, then it is towards that vector, otherwise along the ADL.

I think that this is the same as Aim54 + PD STT + NORM but within 6nm cold or 10nm hot.

I would be only interested in a small detail:

Does the seeker of the Aim-54 gets slaved by the WCS to the track and then it gets fired, or does it get fired into a special direction and then just goes active? I would guess second, as first is only done in ACM mode.

AIM54 + P STT + BRSIT = maddog launch along ADL. Ignores WCS targeted target vector

Your table needs additional rows for AIM54 + P STT + NORM/PHACT Vs NORM/BRSIT. In short, PH ACT commands active on launch and BRSIT (flood mode) ignores WCS tracked target.

Thats where it gets a bit complicated.

First:

There is a so called "ACM active" mode of the Aim-54. (http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/weapons.html#acm-active)

This is the only mode where the missile slaves the seeker to a lock before firing (thats why I think PH ACT only commands an active signal after launch, and the WCS commands the missile first in a direction if there is a lock).

If there is no lock, it just fires maddog ADL

ACM gets activated if:

BRSIT is selected

or

ACM (flip cover) is active AND tracking a target in non PD Mode. (E.g. Pulse or TCS)

So as I would understand, BRSIT and flipping the ACM cover does more or less the same. Only difference COULD BE, that when in PD-STT and prssing BRSIT you are immediately in ACM, while just flipping the ACM cover will still keep you in PD-STT.

So, my questions in the table are still there...

AIM7 + P STT + SP PD = good question! I imagine SP PD would override P STT. What I'm unsure about it is that if transition between PD to P can sometimes lose the lock pre-launch, are you more likely to lose the track with this conflicting settings as the launch is occurring?

Yeah, I hope someone can clear that...

AIM9 + NRM + ACM cover = this should ignore the WCS track vector as the ACM cover is essentially forcing BRSIT

Are you sure? Where you have that information from?

As far as I can see from http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/weapons.html#aim-9-sidewinder, the ACM cover does two things:

Starts (and keeps) the SEAM pattern around ADL and automaticaly(!) slaves the missile to a radar lock. If not in ACM mode, you would need to press the uncage button. (Not sure if that is implemented correctly, did not test it yet).

While BRSIT only activates the SEAM pattern ADL.

I read nowhere, that any mode would ignore a WCS track and just be able to fire ADL.

PLM, PAL, VSL = all P STT

Thx, good to know.

Anybody feel free to correct any of the above if I've made mistake.

Same for me. Would be great if any developer would help us to sum it up correctly.

I don't wanna know how much fun the real turkey drivers here in the forum have when they read our postings about things like that *ggg*. Unfortuantely, I'm pretty sure that they won't say, or aren't allowed to say anything regarding weapon delivery...

Thanks for making this summary table!

You're welcome!

The weapon delivery modes including all settings are just overwhelming. Did not thought that there would be so many possibilities.

So I would just like to understand every single function and operation to know what is doing what and when and why. To be able to choose the correct delivery mode according the situation.

I would not really consider that Maddog. If the missile can't find a target with its own seeker, it falls back to the WCS TWS guiding. So it will still be guided towards the TWS target.

However, it is more or less a normal TWS fire, but it will not loft (because of going active instantly) and thats why it has a drastically reduced range.

I would guess, it gets guided by WCS until the seeker finds a target. It will then chase the first target it locks up. So maybe this sounds more like the "Aim-120 mode", or?

I would but it just failed to find a target.

But even if we don't consider it not to be, does it even fall back to WCS TWS though (again ignoring what is modeled in-game)? If guidance is set at launch i.e. active, then why/how would it fall back?

Are you sure? Where you have that information from?

As far as I can see from http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/weapons.html#aim-9-sidewinder, the ACM cover does two things:

Starts (and keeps) the SEAM pattern around ADL and automaticaly(!) slaves the missile to a radar lock. If not in ACM mode, you would need to press the uncage button. (Not sure if that is implemented correctly, did not test it yet).

While BRSIT only activates the SEAM pattern ADL.

I read nowhere, that any mode would ignore a WCS track and just be able to fire ADL.

You might be right about this one. In my mind I consider the SEAM pattern to effectively be BRSIT around the ADL, but it is technically searching in a double D pattern, so not strictly boresight.

e.g. Su25T + R73 = boresight, no search Vs. Harrier + AIM-9M = search mode (but can also chose strict boresight as well)

However my understanding was that flipping the ACM cover, and not an ACM mode (PAL, VSL, PLM) which is an important distinction particularly here, ignores the WCS track.

Did not thought that there would be so many possibilities.

So I would just like to understand every single function and operation to know what is doing what and when and why. To be able to choose the correct delivery mode according the situation.

Throw a player RIO into the mix and it's seems like a downright recipe for disaster as well!

The lack of the AIM-54 to go pitbull in PD STT as a design choice, but can do so in TWS, still baffles me i.e vulnerable mid-range.

Good job. AIM-9 SEAM acquisition mode missing.

Although the diagram is more about seekerhead behavior, I think it describes the AIM-9 employment modes.

...

 

You might be right about this one. In my mind I consider the SEAM pattern to effectively be BRSIT around the ADL, but it is technically searching in a double D pattern, so not strictly boresight.

e.g. Su25T + R73 = boresight, no search Vs. Harrier + AIM-9M = search mode (but can also chose strict boresight as well)

 

However my understanding was that flipping the ACM cover, and not an ACM mode (PAL, VSL, PLM) which is an important distinction particularly here, ignores the WCS track.

 

 

...

1 - However those are 2 different things.

- SEAM is a "function" (so to speak);

- Boresight; Boresight SCAN; and WCS (or TV) SCAN; are "modes".

2 - That's why it's called "Boresight SCAN" Mode.

See diagram at post #8.

You're really making a BIG mess about AIM-9 employment modes. :lol:

I would not consider SEAM as a weapon guiding mode, it is just more or less a simple "uncage". Not sure if I wanna add it, I think changing "uncage" to "uncage and automaticaly activate SEAM" could also do it.

Although it stands for: "Sidewinder Expanded Acquisition Mode", it's not really a "mode" - instead it's a "function".

Also it's not a "weapon guiding mode", but a "acquisition" function.

There isn't such a thing as: "automaticaly activate SEAM" - it's always activated, unless you're in Boresight Mode (seekerhead Caged to ADL).

SEAM, is merely the ability to "uncage" from ADL and get slaved to scan about a pattern or sensor.

You are probably confusing SEAM, with WCS Slave SCAN modes, for RADAR or TV...

You see the seekerhead scanning around the Radar or TV target track, but the seekerhead isn't really "locked" on target... because you didn't press CAGE / SEAM yet.

Eitherway, you can fire the AIM-9 either, before or after, pressing the CAGE / SEAM button.

ACM gets activated if:

BRSIT is selected

or

ACM (flip cover) is active AND tracking a target in non PD Mode. (E.g. Pulse or TCS)

So as I would understand, BRSIT and flipping the ACM cover does more or less the same. Only difference COULD BE, that when in PD-STT and prssing BRSIT you are immediately in ACM, while just flipping the ACM cover will still keep you in PD-STT.

Regarding the AIM-9 employment, those two modes have nothing to do with each other.

Flipping up that cover, you activate the ACM Encounter Mode - for instance, for when you find yourself rapidly engaged with the enemy.

This automatically activates the following functions / modes:

- Air to Air Mode ;

- Gun rate to HIGH ;

- Sidewinder cooling ;

- Missile preparation.

The other is Missile Mode, that pushbutton changes between:

- Normal Mode, the missiles are slaved / guided by the sensors (Radar, etc.)

- Boresight Mode, the missiles are aiming / searching forward to the ADL, (in case of Radar malfunction, etc.)

(Some of this stuff has been talked before, posts #3 and 13#.)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=236948

 

Starts (and keeps) the SEAM pattern around ADL and automaticaly(!) slaves the missile to a radar lock. If not in ACM mode, you would need to press the uncage button. (Not sure if that is implemented correctly, did not test it yet).

While BRSIT only activates the SEAM pattern ADL.

I read nowhere, that any mode would ignore a WCS track and just be able to fire ADL.

Again, you're mixing the SEAM "cage/lock" function with the Slave SCAN modes.

(You don't need to press the uncage ( CAGE / SEAM ? ) button to fire the AIM-9, you can fire it merely by listening to the audio growl tone change if you wish; but that's not the most effective procedure however.)

Boresight Mode (BRSIT), does preciselly the opposite of what you say - it keeps the AIM-9 seekerhead aimed forward, caged to the ADL; NO scan pattern.

Boresight SCAN Mode and WCS Slave SCAN, do have the seekerhead SCAN pattern you mention.

Again - see diagram at post #8 above.

Really great info! For completeness can you expand the spreadsheet with all permutations?

Really great info! For completeness can you expand the spreadsheet with all permutations?

 

Really making it more complicated than it has to be XD

If theACM cover/boresight switch is selected with the AIM-54 in TWS, will it launch along the ADL or towards a target detected by the radar?

There isn't such a thing as: "automaticaly activate SEAM" - it's always activated, unless you're in Boresight Mode (seekerhead Caged to ADL).

SEAM, is merely the ability to "uncage" from ADL and get slaved to scan about a pattern or sensor.

In normal mode (SW selected, no lock, acm cover closed, Mode/STP NORM) the seeker is caged and looks with his 2,5°degree FOV just ADL.

If a heat emitter is getting in that areas, you hear a pitching up noise. However, you will not get a lock and a fired missile will be lost in 90% of the time.

When you press the Cage/Seam button without a lock, this uncages the seeker and it does the dobule D pattern ADL and will lock to a heat emitter if it finds one.

If you press the Cage/Seam button with a lock, the double D pattern will be done around the locked target.

If you press the BRSIT button, it just uncages the seeker ADL so that it does the double D Pattern there.

If you flip up the ACM cover, it uncages the seeker, it does the double D pattern around ADL and it also automaticaly slaves the seeker (does a double D patern) to the lock.

Can all be read here:

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/weapons.html#aim-9-sidewinder

Especially, look at the drawing. You can see tha FOV from the seeker and the FOV for boresight. This explains more or less, that the seeker must be uncaged and doing a double D pattern when useing that mode.

However, I'm with you that it is not stated very clearly in the manual what happens when pressing the BRSIT button.

You are probably confusing SEAM, with WCS Slave SCAN modes, for RADAR or TV...

You see the seekerhead scanning around the Radar or TV target track, but the seekerhead isn't really "locked" on target... because you didn't press CAGE / SEAM yet.

No, I'm not confusing those two things.

SEAM is nothing more then a double D search pattern. It locks to a heat emitter if it finds one.

Uncageing, means nothing more then starting this search pattern around ADL, or around a locked WCS target.

So, pressing the cage seam button does always starts a double D pattern. With no WCS lock just ADL, and with WCS lock there where the lock is.

Yeah, maybe you need to press the Cage/SEAM button once more when you hear the higher pitch tone, can't remeber correct atm.

Eitherway, you can fire the AIM-9 either, before or after, pressing the CAGE / SEAM button.

As far as I understand it, there are only two situations when you don't need to press the Cage/SEAM button:

When you are aiming ADL and hear the high pitch tone.

When the ACM cover is flipped up and it automaticaly slaves the seeker to a radar lock.

Pressing the Cage/Seam button after a fired missle does exactley nothing (to that fired missile).

Regarding the AIM-9 employment, those two modes have nothing to do with each other.

 

Flipping up that cover, you activate the ACM Encounter Mode - for instance, for when you find yourself rapidly engaged with the enemy.

You messed that up. My quote you did, was refering to the AIM-54 and not the AIM-9

This automatically activates the following functions / modes:

- Air to Air Mode ;

- Gun rate to HIGH ;

- Sidewinder cooling ;

- Missile preparation.

 

The other is Missile Mode, that pushbutton changes between:

- Normal Mode, the missiles are slaved / guided by the sensors (Radar, etc.)

- Boresight Mode, the missiles are aiming / searching forward to the ADL, (in case of Radar malfunction, etc.)

This list seems not to be complete.

Flipping the ACM cover means:

- Air to Air Mode

- Gun rate to HIGH

- Sidewinder cooling ON

- Missile preparation ON

- AIM-54: Seeker is activated and missile will always be fired active. Maddog ADL or into direction of a WCS track if present.

- AIM-54: If there is a target within 10° ADL, the LTE will be shorten from 3 seconds to 1.

- AIM-9: SEAM ADL will be activated and a WCS lock will be automaticaly slaved.

Pushing the BRSIT button:

- AIM-54: Seeker is activated and missile will always be fired active. Maddog ADL or into direction of a WCS track if present.

- AIM-54: If there is a target within 10° ADL, the LTE will be shorten from 3 seconds to 1

- AIM-7: Can be fired in flood mode without a lock.

- AIM-9: Activates the SEAM pattern ADL.

Boresight Mode (BRSIT), does preciselly the opposite of what you say - it keeps the AIM-9 seekerhead aimed forward, caged to the ADL; NO scan pattern.

That seems to be very unlogical for me.

Here you can see that the seeker FOV is 2.5°. Thats mechanical and can not be changed. It also speaks about a boresight scan with 6°. This fits also to the pattern.

You say, that the SEAM is done the whole time and only pressing BRSIT locks it ADL. Thats unlogical, that would wear the seeker head WAY too much over time.

It is much more logical, that the seeker is always locked ADL and only starts the SEAM pattern when the CAGE/SEAM button is pressed, or BRSIT mode is selected.

Honestly, I think that this sentence in the manual is not correct.

However, IF it would be correct, what would then be the difference to the normal mode? Try it yourself and tell me. You will see, that the normal mode does exactley that, what you are saying that the BRSIT mode should do.

Again - see diagram at post #8 above.

Whats that diagram, where do you have it from?

"Borseight" would describe just the normal behavor (SW selected, no lock, acm cover closed, Mode/STP NORM)

"Boresight Scan" would describe what should happen when pressing the BRSIT button

Also it says "ACM encounter" and leads to "auto uncage", thats exactley what I was talking about when flipping the ACM Cover.

Really great info! For completeness can you expand the spreadsheet with all permutations?

Not necessary, as far as I understand it yet, pushing BRSIT or flipping the ACM cover with the Aim-54 push it immediately to the P-STT behavor. However, it is the question if this is correct.

If you so, there are no additional lines needed and there would be a lot of doubled ones in yours.

If theACM cover/boresight switch is selected with the AIM-54 in TWS, will it launch along the ADL or towards a target detected by the radar?

As I understood it so far, it puts the missile into ACM mode, that means that it activates its seeker and fires it active.

If there is no lock, it fires it maddog ADL.

If there is a lock, it moves the seeker to the position of the lock and fires it then.

As I understood it so far, it puts the missile into ACM mode, that means that it activates its seeker and fires it active.

If there is no lock, it fires it maddog ADL.

If there is a lock, it moves the seeker to the position of the lock and fires it then.

Right but does this include a target that I've hooked on the TID in TWS, or do I have to have the target locked in STT to move the seeker to the position of the lock?

As far as I understood it, it only makes a difference if you have a hardlock or not.

With lock, it will be fired towards that direction.

Without lock, it will be fired ADL.

Always with the seeker head active and locking up the first thing it can find.

Hooking does nothing to anything. In TWS, targets are aquired automaticly by the WCS or with the "next" pushbutton.

But never tried anything of that.

You could fire the Aim-54 in TWS mode with the Missile mode set to PH ACT. That would (probably) engage up to six different targets as the missile falls back to WCS as long as it doesn't found a target on its own. However, the missile won't loft, has because of that a reduced range and also locks up to the first target it finds. So if you are tracking 6 targets in TWS, it would be possible that all 6 missiles lock up to the same single target...

As far as I understood it, it only makes a difference if you have a hardlock or not.

With lock, it will be fired towards that direction.

Without lock, it will be fired ADL.

Always with the seeker head active and locking up the first thing it can find.

 

Hooking does nothing to anything. In TWS, targets are aquired automaticly by the WCS or with the "next" pushbutton.

 

 

But never tried anything of that.

 

 

You could fire the Aim-54 in TWS mode with the Missile mode set to PH ACT. That would (probably) engage up to six different targets as the missile falls back to WCS as long as it doesn't found a target on its own. However, the missile won't loft, has because of that a reduced range and also locks up to the first target it finds. So if you are tracking 6 targets in TWS, it would be possible that all 6 missiles lock up to the same single target...

Definitely one of the most complex modules I've flown

Hello viper2097,

You didn't read my previous post or the diagram pic, with attention - otherwise you wouldn't be insisting on those WRONG assumptions.

First a word of advice - don't take everything in the "DCS F-14 manual" so serious, as sometimes it can be inadvertently confusing or misleading:

- it was designed to pass the info on the F-14 systems to the user (player) in a relatively simple and synthetic way... therefore it somewhat bonds different concepts together - so you can have a more straightforward and quick understanding of its many systems;

- the majority of sim players would not want to go through DOZENS of pages / diagrams, regarding just the AIM-9 employment in the F-14 A/B... but the NAVAIR manuals regarding that theme alone DO have that many pages, (now imagine the AIM-54)... see my point ?

- for instance, the "double-D scan pattern" you mention, was for AIM-9G missiles;

Actually the AIM-9L/M versions do have an "epicyclic circle scan pattern" - confirmed by the devs, but in the "manual" it still says "double-D"... see my point ?

Now read the following citations to your comments with attention this time :

In normal mode (SW selected, no lock, acm cover closed, Mode/STP NORM) the seeker is caged and looks with his 2,5°degree FOV just ADL.

WRONG - and because you are in Boresight SCAN Mode:

- the seeker is uncaged already;

- and not fixed on ADL, but scanning around it;

(Although that isn't visible at the HUD).

If a heat emitter is getting in that areas, you hear a pitching up noise. However, you will not get a lock and a fired missile will be lost in 90% of the time.

Because even without "uncaging", you also fired with wrong parameters:

- to late when the tone wasn't good anymore;

- so the target was probably outside the narrow seekerhead FOV already, because you didn't uncage.

When you press the Cage/Seam button without a lock, this uncages the seeker and it does the dobule D pattern ADL and will lock to a heat emitter if it finds one.

WRONG - you never have a seekerhead "LOCK" itself, until you press the Cage/Seam button;

What you do have is: a seekerhead SCAN about ADL or Radar / TV track, got it ?

Also, the scan pattern is being done already before you press Cage/Seam button.

If you press the Cage/Seam button with a lock, the double D pattern will be done around the locked target.

What a mess... what sense would it make to start the search pattern again, for a target that is locked already ? :lol:

Same as above - the scan pattern is being done already before you press Cage/Seam button;

Again the seekerhead isn't "locked" until you press the Cage/Seam button.

If you press the BRSIT button, it just uncages the seeker ADL so that it does the double D Pattern there.

WRONG - it does preciselly the opposite.

As it is the Boresight Mode (and NOT Boresight SCAN Mode), it keeps the seekerhead Caged to ADL.

Told you that yesterday...

If you flip up the ACM cover, it uncages the seeker, it does the double D pattern around ADL and it also automaticaly slaves the seeker (does a double D patern) to the lock.

The seekerhead is ALWAYS uncaged, unless you are in Boresight Mode (BRSIT);

Again, forget the ACM - the seekerhead will always be automaticaly slaved if not in Boresight Mode (BRSIT).

No, I'm not confusing those two things.

SEAM is nothing more then a double D search pattern. It locks to a heat emitter if it finds one.

Uncageing, means nothing more then starting this search pattern around ADL, or around a locked WCS target.

So, pressing the cage seam button does always starts a double D pattern. With no WCS lock just ADL, and with WCS lock there where the lock is.

Yeah, maybe you need to press the Cage/SEAM button once more when you hear the higher pitch tone, can't remeber correct atm.

Yes you are - in the 2nd sentence you're comparing SEAM with the Boresight SCAN search pattern... :D

Again, SEAM is merely the ability to "uncage" from ADL and get slaved to scan about a pattern or sensor.

Very WRONG - the search pattern always starts by itself - pressing the cage seam button has nothing to do with it;

What pressing the cage seam button does, is trying to "LOCK" on target.

As far as I understand it, there are only two situations when you don't need to press the Cage/SEAM button:

When you are aiming ADL and hear the high pitch tlone.

That would be Boresight Mode.

So actually it would be in your interest, to press the Cage/SEAM button, before the target runs outside the AIM-9 seekerhead FOV real quick.

Read carefully: you can fire the AIM-9 in any of the modes below, either with or without, pressing the Cage/SEAM button:

- Boresight;

- Boresight SCAN;

- Slave SCAN Radar or TV.

Pressing the Cage/Seam button after a fired missle does exactley nothing (to that fired missile).

Now you're getting there.

Sure it doesn't, because as the AIM-9 can guide itself after locked, all the stuff we've been talking about, only has to do with the: target acquisition process.

This list seems not to be complete.

It isn't, as my discsussion main focus of interest here, is regarding the AIM-9.

That seems to be very unlogical for me.

Here you can see that the seeker FOV is 2.5°. Thats mechanical and can not be changed. It also speaks about a boresight scan with 6°. This fits also to the pattern.

You say, that the SEAM is done the whole time and only pressing BRSIT locks it ADL. Thats unlogical, that would wear the seeker head WAY too much over time.

It is much more logical, that the seeker is always locked ADL and only starts the SEAM pattern when the CAGE/SEAM button is pressed, or BRSIT mode is selected.

Honestly, I think that this sentence in the manual is not correct.

 

However, IF it would be correct, what would then be the difference to the normal mode? Try it yourself and tell me. You will see, that the normal mode does exactley that, what you are saying that the BRSIT mode should do.

Both BRSIT (Boresight) and NORMAL (Boresight SCAN), look similar at the HUD, but in reality NORMAL (Boresight SCAN) is doing a circular scan pattern search.

Whats that diagram, where do you have it from?

That diagram is my take on the AIM-9 employment modes in the F-14 - but focused at seekerhead behavior.

Based on several F-14 NAVAIR manuals, from like 2016 or so (even before the HeatBlur F-14 came out), as you can see in various threads along the forum.

Sorry, I don't have access to a computer in the next days, so just one thing short thaz you are getting wrong:

With "lock", I usually mean a radar STT lock. Ny pressing cage/seam it then uncages the seeker to do the seam pattern in the direction were the radar locked target is.

You are right, mixing up a radar stt lock and a locked IR heat emitter can be confusing...

However, many of those things you are saying are the opposite of what it is done now in the sim, done in many other modules (according the principle) and according logical thinking.

I'm sorry, I can't follow you with most points...

We shpuld maxbe talk about a few basics and what we understand at them:

Caged: seeker is stiff looking right adl (2,5° fov)

Uncaged: seeker is able to move within its 40° fov

SEAM: double D pattern done by the seeker

Lock: seeker found and stays at a heat emitter (continuous high pitch tone)

Slaved: seeker is commanded, to look in the direction of a locked (radar or tcs) target

Sorry, I don't have access to a computer in the next days, so just one thing short thaz you are getting wrong:

With "lock", I usually mean a radar STT lock. Ny pressing cage/seam it then uncages the seeker to do the seam pattern in the direction were the radar locked target is.

You are right, mixing up a radar stt lock and a locked IR heat emitter can be confusing...

 

However, many of those things you are saying are the opposite of what it is done now in the sim, done in many other modules (according the principle) and according logical thinking.

I'm sorry, I can't follow you with most points...

 

We shpuld maxbe talk about a few basics and what we understand at them:

 

1 - Caged: seeker is stiff looking right adl (2,5° fov)

2 - Uncaged: seeker is able to move within its 40° fov

3 - SEAM: double D pattern done by the seeker

4 - Lock: seeker found and stays at a heat emitter (continuous high pitch tone)

5 - Slaved: seeker is commanded, to look in the direction of a locked (radar or tcs) target

I agree.

So, what things are opposite of what is done now in the sim - do you mean the "double-D" search pattern ?

Because the devs took it away (the moving seekerhead symbol search pattern) from the HUD, in the last 2.5 update versions.

The program is still doing the circular search pattern - although the symbol depicts now caged, even in Boresight SCAN.

1 - preciselly, it's in that "condition" (or function) when in Boresight Mode;

2 - in the F-14 it "uncages" by itself when in Boresight SCAN or WCS Slave SCAN, only then it starts the search scan patterns;

What adds to the confusion is: "uncage" doesn't work exactly the same in every fighter...

In the F-14B is is something that happens before initiatting a search / lock; in an F-16C is something that can be done after there is a seekeerhead lock on target.

3 - No, SEAM is the ability that allows the seekerhead to do that; or scan about the sensors, or whatever, as others fighters like the F-4 Phantom II also had that capability, but the search patterns could be somewhat different.

4 - AIM-9 seekerhead lock - is really what you've mentioned when press CAGE/SEAM button;

5 - preciselly, "look" around a target track; just like on my diagram at the other post.

I would it really welcome if one of the devs could clarify all those open questions / disagreements.

Especially on the Aim54, this would be one of the most interesting things here...

I would it really welcome if one of the devs could clarify all those open questions / disagreements.

 

Especially on the Aim54, this would be one of the most interesting things here...

Open questions ?

Regarding the AIM-9 procedures in the F-14B, I've just told you what NAVAIR manuals do specify.

Regarding the Aim9, I told you, that I see some things way other.

Also, this thread was mainly about the Aim54 and Aim7, as those modes are much more complex. If youbread my first postings and my table, you will see all those open questions.

Regarding the Aim9, I told you, that I see some things way other.

 

Also, this thread was mainly about the Aim54 and Aim7, as those modes are much more complex. If youbread my first postings and my table, you will see all those open questions.

You have all the right to "see" things your way, but in the meantime you're passing wrong information to others, here at the forum.

One thing, is not understanding some concept; another is keep insisting "it's my way, because."

As for me, I don't just write stuff the way I "see" it, but in this case the way they are stated at the F-14's respective NAVAIR manuals.

"... pressing cage/seam it then uncages the seeker to do the seam pattern ..."

When you keep insisting on wrong assumptions like this (after I've detailed 2 different times why they are wrong), I come to the conclusion that you have no idea whatsoever, of how big your errors are.

As you can see in the diagram below, the seeker is already uncaged and doing the search pattern, before the pilot decides to press, or not, Cage/Seam button.

(A little secret between us: if you look closely, even if the pilot doesn't press the Cage/Seam button, the seeker will be uncaged and searching anyway ! It's MAGIC !)

If you really can't understand this, I can't help you any better.

And I came to the conclusion, that the whole Idea about that chart in post 1 was about the Aim54 and Aim7. The Aim9 is there only for being complete.

Now you talk since two pages only about the Aim9. Thats what I'm seeing now.

However, I'm sure that you can do now a summary what is wrong modelled in the cat now, where the manual is wrong and you can also do a correct, and complete version of the chart on the first post.

Hopefully also for the Aim54 and Aim7.

I'm sure Heatblur is happy when someone can help them with those things.