Getting rid of external tanks?

Guys, got a short question to the real Hornet-jockeys.

Under which circumstances do/did you get rid of the external fueltanks? Everytime the are empty? Or only in emergencies? Are the tanks disposable articles?

Only in Emergencies. You always bring your tanks back as they are limited supply aboard the ship.

Could you imagine the space they would take up in the hanger bay if they tossed them every time? It seemed like they were all over the place already I can't imagine if they were disposable.

Could you imagine the space they would take up in the hanger bay if they tossed them every time? It seemed like they were all over the place already I can't imagine if they were disposable.

Or how quickly you'd run out of them.

I maintained hornets for around 9 years. Only seen one tank ever have to be punched off. There was a fuel transfer issue, and the pilot couldn’t get the fuel out of the centerline. You can’t land on the ship with that 2400lb tank hanging, so it got jettisoned.

I maintained hornets for around 9 years. Only seen one tank ever have to be punched off. There was a fuel transfer issue, and the pilot couldn’t get the fuel out of the centerline. You can’t land on the ship with that 2400lb tank hanging, so it got jettisoned.

I am not a real pilot...

In WWII and Korea tanks were dropped when engaging in combat, because combat was a guns only affair. Knife fighting with extra weight and drag is a death sentence. The American Ace Tommy McGuire was killed in action when he attempted a tight low-alt turn with tanks in his P-38. It is commonly believed he would have pulled off the turn had he dropped the tanks.

In a world of modern BVR combat, and US air superiority in all theaters to date post Vietnam, there is no need to drop tanks as part of a mission profile. Though I am sure pilots would drop them when going into a knife fight.

In WWII, plenty of those drop tanks were paper based and meant as 1 time use.

The air force has WRM tanks that are “kit tanks” made from cheaper parts, etc. not sure if the navy has the same. They can fly them when the threat is high enough they may get shot at.

The tanks arent cheap, but not as expensive as an airplane.

The tanks now are still considered expendable stores. However, they do have repairable valves, ect. inside, so they can be fixed. If you're a jet mech, on a navy ship, you spend countless hours in the hanger removing and replacing those valves, and fixing and testing tanks. We'd take enough to put 3 on each jet, even though usually only flew with 2. The extra tanks get stored in the overhead in the hanger bay, and usually stay there. In a case like when one of our pilots had to punch a tank off, we brought a replacement down from the rafters. Normally if a tank breaks, i.e. won't take fuel, we rob from a jet that's not supposed to fly, and then fix the broken tank. We'd shuffle tanks from jets that were broken in the hanger, up to jets that needed the tank up on the flight deck. Just like they ended production on the F-18, they also ended it on the drop tanks. So when a new one needed to be ordered it would most likely have to come from a boneyard. Prior to it being issued to a squadron, it would be cleaned up, tested, then crated and shipped. As you can imagine that would be quite the process to get it to a squadron, especially one deployed.

Nowadays I'd say it's very rare that a pilot would punch tanks off. Not saying it's impossible, just not common. Think Jello, from The Fighter Pilot Podcast summed it up when he referred to the emergency jettison button as, "The admiral's doorbell." If you start punching stores, it's guaranteed trip to see the old man and explain why you needed to.

The tanks now are still considered expendable stores. However, they do have repairable valves, ect. inside, so they can be fixed. If you're a jet mech, on a navy ship, you spend countless hours in the hanger removing and replacing those valves, and fixing and testing tanks. We'd take enough to put 3 on each jet, even though usually only flew with 2. The extra tanks get stored in the overhead in the hanger bay, and usually stay there. In a case like when one of our pilots had to punch a tank off, we brought a replacement down from the rafters. Normally if a tank breaks, i.e. won't take fuel, we rob from a jet that's not supposed to fly, and then fix the broken tank. We'd shuffle tanks from jets that were broken in the hanger, up to jets that needed the tank up on the flight deck. Just like they ended production on the F-18, they also ended it on the drop tanks. So when a new one needed to be ordered it would most likely have to come from a boneyard. Prior to it being issued to a squadron, it would be cleaned up, tested, then crated and shipped. As you can imagine that would be quite the process to get it to a squadron, especially one deployed.

 

Nowadays I'd say it's very rare that a pilot would punch tanks off. Not saying it's impossible, just not common. Think Jello, from The Fighter Pilot Podcast summed it up when he referred to the emergency jettison button as, "The admiral's doorbell." If you start punching stores, it's guaranteed trip to see the old man and explain why you needed to.

In an all out shooting war like DCS, you should expect that tanks are being punched regularly. It's only rare today because nobody is being shot at by SAMs or participating in WVR combat. One of the first reactions to being lit up by a target tracking radar is that you're supposed to punch the tanks, and depending on risk level of the mission you might punch off the bombs to survive. You lose that extended range from limited fuel tanks and those bombs, but the jet (and pilot) is far more valuable.

In an all out shooting war like DCS, you should expect that tanks are being punched regularly. It's only rare today because nobody is being shot at by SAMs or participating in WVR combat. One of the first reactions to being lit up by a target tracking radar is that you're supposed to punch the tanks, and depending on risk level of the mission you might punch off the bombs to survive. You lose that extended range from limited fuel tanks and those bombs, but the jet (and pilot) is far more valuable.

No. Hornet pilots getting shot at by SAMs do not punch off their tanks- just like Tomcat and A-6 pilots. You train with tanks on and fight with tanks on. If you get jumped over an enemy airbase by a super maneuverable bandit with a pair of IR missiles and a gun, you've wasted too much time looking at him instead of killing him, and deserve to get shot down. The F-4 was a different jet, from a different time, that had to fight at high speed. The Hornet is not that kind of jet at all.

You can absolutely keep the CL tank in BFM. Usually though, the jet is configured for either A2A or A2G not both. Good mission planing keeps the counter air missions separate from the strikes. Its not a pure interdiction platform like the F-15E that can be expected to perform both roles simultaneously, it has been done though.

DCS is kind of a free for all. But generally the hornet is either F or A -18 and not an F AND A -18 :) Probably why the F-35 and other more modern aircraft are moving away from drop tanks, in favor of total conformal carriage of fuel.

The only time I’ve seen tanks punched off in real life was over Libya, there was one occasion where a tornado crew punched off the tanks as part of reaction to a SAM threat. There was also a second occurrence where an engine fault saw another crew punch the tanks on final.

Things do vary between different aircraft types when it comes to when the crew would get rid of the tanks (and other stores for that matter), some aircraft have a greater need to get rid than others, but the crews I speak to daily still say if they’re being shot at by a significant threat then they want them gone in most cases.

The more modern jets, such as Typhoon, have much lower drag tanks that can be kept during BVR and even WVR with minimal penalty. But there is still a penalty.

Specifically to DCS, given the drag reduction and performance increase associated with getting rid of the tanks, if I’m dealing with a significant SAM threat or peer level fighter threat, the tanks are going before engaging.

No. Hornet pilots getting shot at by SAMs do not punch off their tanks- just like Tomcat and A-6 pilots. You train with tanks on and fight with tanks on. If you get jumped over an enemy airbase by a super maneuverable bandit with a pair of IR missiles and a gun, you've wasted too much time looking at him instead of killing him, and deserve to get shot down. The F-4 was a different jet, from a different time, that had to fight at high speed. The Hornet is not that kind of jet at all.

So are you speaking from actual experience or flight sim experience? The guy you are replying to is speaking from the earlier. Going off what your profile says, it looks like you are speaking from the later and attenpting to present as fact.

The air force has WRM tanks that are “kit tanks” made from cheaper parts, etc. not sure if the navy has the same. They can fly them when the threat is high enough they may get shot at.

 

The tanks arent cheap, but not as expensive as an airplane.

Yep. My understanding is that they don't contain the internal baffles of the more expensive tanks, so fuel gets sloshed around as it's used.

No. Hornet pilots getting shot at by SAMs do not punch off their tanks- just like Tomcat and A-6 pilots. You train with tanks on and fight with tanks on. If you get jumped over an enemy airbase by a super maneuverable bandit with a pair of IR missiles and a gun, you've wasted too much time looking at him instead of killing him, and deserve to get shot down. The F-4 was a different jet, from a different time, that had to fight at high speed. The Hornet is not that kind of jet at all.

Fuel tanks are not just an issue at high speed. If you are in a turning fight, any unnecessary weight is going to increase induced drag and reduce your sustained turn rate. Being under-powered as it is, the Hornet can't afford that. In a life and death situation, those tanks are coming off. The reason you don't see that happening IRL is because (as someone already pointed out) we haven't been in a shooting war with a peer state like the US v. Russia scenario envisioned in DCS.

Now could people in DCS be a bit less inclined to jettison everything every time they get locked up? Probably. But if there is no real cost to doing so, I doubt behavior will change much. Multiplayer mission designers could make supply of fuel tanks more constrained if they wanted to though.

I’ve always wondered what restrictions they had for when you could drop your tanks. Like if you were to get into an engagement over a populated area. I’d hate to have a fuel tank come through my roof while watching the Super Bowl.

I’ve always wondered what restrictions they had for when you could drop your tanks. Like if you were to get into an engagement over a populated area. I’d hate to have a fuel tank come through my roof while watching the Super Bowl.

All wouldn't be lost, do you know what you could do with that! I remember a few years back, seeing a picture of a guy that had converted an SUU-30 dispenser into a mammoth barbecue grill!:lol:

No. Hornet pilots getting shot at by SAMs do not punch off their tanks- just like Tomcat and A-6 pilots. You train with tanks on and fight with tanks on. If you get jumped over an enemy airbase by a super maneuverable bandit with a pair of IR missiles and a gun, you've wasted too much time looking at him instead of killing him, and deserve to get shot down. The F-4 was a different jet, from a different time, that had to fight at high speed. The Hornet is not that kind of jet at all.

Unless you're speaking from a hornet driver's perspective or info given to you from hornet drivers, I don't really believe it. Even single digit SAMs (SA-2/3/6/8) means you need to pull max airframe limit Gs to get enough miss distance to survive. For double digit SAMs (SA-10 and up) all you can hope for is that you're far away enough to kinematically defeat the missile, terrain mask, or bend the wings to last ditch the missile. Good luck surviving against an SA-17 with anything but a clean jet.

For air to air, like someone mentioned already, if you're merging (especially at a defensive or neutral merge) those tanks are being punched off unless it's a threat that can only shoot when they're behind you (IR missiles that can't track at high aspect.) It's absolutely stupid to not drop the tanks in a knife fight. You want every advantage possible. As a fighter pilot, you can't really get in trouble for punching tanks in combat when you're at the merge regardless of the threat, unless it is the common Syria ops where all air to air is shadowing "potential" enemy fighters.

Guys, got a short question to the real Hornet-jockeys.

 

 

Under which circumstances do/did you get rid of the external fueltanks? Everytime the are empty? Or only in emergencies? Are the tanks disposable articles?

It's a simulator. You get rid of them every time you feel like it :)

In reality, especially during peacetime, pilots bring the empties back because they're re-usable, and expensive (about 100 thousand bucks just for a bloody gas tank!)

When engaging enemy aircraft, you drop the tanks (even if there's gas left in 'em) because the reduced weight and drag improves your flight performance.

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I wish if there once will be a dynamic campaign for DCS, it includes simulation of logistics and can put us seriously short in supply of not only cool stuff such as advanced munitions, but also pods, tanks and whatnot. All these little things would then have a meaning. :)

The tactics . . . no, amateurs discuss tactics [...] Professional soldiers study logistics.

I wish if there once will be a dynamic campaign for DCS, it includes simulation of logistics and can put us seriously short in supply of not only cool stuff such as advanced munitions, but also pods, tanks and whatnot. All these little things would then have a meaning. :)

There are servers for multiplayer that do.

I have yet to jettison a tank in DCS on the F/A-18.

I’ve always wondered what restrictions they had for when you could drop your tanks. Like if you were to get into an engagement over a populated area. I’d hate to have a fuel tank come through my roof while watching the Super Bowl.

If there's a real aerial engagement happening over your house, you'll have more entertaining things to watch than the football game :)

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There are servers for multiplayer that do.

 

 

I have yet to jettison a tank in DCS on the F/A-18.

Same.

Only time I've done it (jettison everything) was when I got shot down and was gliding. I glided close as I could to friendly area. Plane was going to crash, so I jetted everything to further glide range. I would assume if you got jumped by a pair of capable enemy planes, you're going to drop them if it's not too late

There are other things, like the G limit override paddle on the joystick. You do this in real life, you're going to have to explain yourself as now that plane needs to be checked. in DCS, it's not a big deal. Nothing breaks, nothing nobody yells at you, and you cain free Gs. lol