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VR FPS (2.5.1.16543.355)


Flighter

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Hi all.

I hate to be negative but...

The latest update really killed the FPS for VR players. I hope ED takes notice and comes up with a solution.

The disaster comes from the "forced deferred shading".

I used to get about 80 to 90 fps on my test flight which is the Nevada free flight with the KA50.

Now I get 30 to 37 with terrible visuals (anything below 45 is catastrophic for VR as all hell breaks loose).

 

As probably most of you know the deferred shading has a very big enemy called MSAA.

Which (MSAA) is an absolute must (for me at least) for the low native resolution of the Oculus headset.

So I had the deferred shading off, MSAA at x4, shadows at medium and pixel density at 1.5. And I had a nice 80 to 90 fps. With ASW on a SOLID 45.

 

All this heaven is lost as the deferred shading is now forcibly on. I have to either turn off shadows completely or turn off MSAA.

With MSAA at x2 I almost get my 45 fps with bad visuals that kill the VR immersion.

 

I really hope the ED will reconsider their decision forcing this very questionably good / bad (depends who you ask) shading method on.

 

My system:

 

CPU : i7 6700k at 4.6G

GPU : Gigabytes G1 GTX1080 / 8GB ram / 2Ghz GPU clock

RAM : 16GB ram / 3200 Mhz

HDD : Separate SSD disks for DCS and windows

OS :WIN10/64 pro.

 

 

Test procedure described here : https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3549074&postcount=218

 

 

LATEST MEASUREMENTS 3-APR-2019 - 2.5.4.29167 : One year later...

Modified shaders by Kegetys : Just remarkable improvement !

attachment.php?attachmentid=207899

 

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=207898

 

 

 

Addition 1:

I cannot disagree with most of your posts as they mostly express personal preference.

But regardless of preferences the fact is that :

We had the option to play at almost 90fps with MSAAx4 and PD at 1.5. This is not there anymore. We are forcefully downgraded to 33 fps. This is almost 1/3 of the initial performance.

So I think, it is important to KEEP the choice rather than not. And we should ask for that because it is to our benefit as users, even if some may not be using it.

 

Regarding the MSAA, the sensation of pulsating scenery that is caused by the moving jaggies, totally destroys the immersion factor of VR for me.

Sorry guys but I (we) have payed a lot of money in software and hardware (server owners even more...) to enjoy this game. To have things that were there, taken away, simply does not feel good.

We may at least ask them back, polite and with reason.

And I hope ED is reading this and working on a solution. I hope.

Cheers

 

Addition 2:

Hi All.

Always use sunscreen.

 

For the tl;dr :

- with DS, my VR experience is bad no matter the tweaking.

- On line streaming is out of the question (Oculus mirror).

- Deferred Shading does not produce better results. Bad implementations produce bad results.

- D.S. may be the wrong selection for a flight simulator. Creates more problems that solves.

- We have more than enough computing power to have excellent VR experiences and performance.

- DCS seems in a permanent state of "work in progress"; including all (?) modules; prepaid W.I.P. that never get finished.

 

Still awake ? read on, we'll fix that.

I spent the entire weekend trying to find a set-up that will let me use the new scheme. Unfortunately, although I tried to see only the positive side, I was left with disappointment. The previous "experience quality" (for VR) is not comparable to the new one.

 

I was toying with on-line streaming. I did a couple of tests and all was fine. I use Oculus mirror to create another window with proper ratio, let's say 16:9. Then capture, compress and stream that; while playing is VR. Well,,, you can forget that now. Plus the sacrificed visual quality is BAD on a monitor.

 

While searching the forums for any missed tips, I noticed an interesting trend. People defend Deferred Shading because "it produces better image quality". I do not know how on earth this came about, at least on the technical side. Both available rendering pipelines (and many many more), IF WELL IMPLEMENTED, should be able to produce indistinguishable results.

And like any tool, each one is better at one thing or the other.

The strong point of deferred shading is the ability to produce lighting and shadows from many many light sources quite fast. That's about it.

Now think, is this an FPS game, let's say Battlefield, where multiple light sources illuminating the scene (and producing shadows), really make a difference in the scene itself (and immersion) ? Is THIS the one thing that is missing from DCS ? Why on earth do you want that on a flight simulator ? We cannot even use "Cockpit Global Illumination" because of the extra FPS hit.

And the biggest irony of all is that in order to have a decent frame rate in VR, you should turn off shadows completely (has even been suggested above !!!!!) Why the hell do I need DS in the first place then ? half of it's job is gone wasted.

 

Another misconception is that at the moment there is not enough computing power to have a decent VR experience. This is very far from the truth. We have two key components, massive processing power and parallelism. If used properly the results may be amazing.

I saw Aerofly FS2 mentioned elsewhere. I have this title and although of a totally different nature, is amazing in visual quality.

IL-2 (I have almost all of them) are very, very good when it comes to VR quality.

Even prepar3d v4 is getting very good at VR. And they have one unique and valuable feature : you can switch between monitor/ VR headset mid-game.

But the title that is the golden standard (for me) of VR performance is Combat Air Patrol 2 (another title I bought). It demonstrates the capability of VR. Has to be flown to be believed. The fluidity at PD of 1.5 and everything maxed out, makes for an unforgettable experience.

 

So, everybody is improving and DCS is going in reverse ? It's my favorite flight simulator for God's sake. I pay and run two servers for them, I talk with actions not simply words.

 

Anyway, I still hope that they will rethink their decision and will at least give people the choice. Even if it costs them extra man-hours.

 

I also hope that for a change we start seeing things finished. Anything I see in DCS is half done. Pre-paid and half done that is.

There is no sense or "production grade" product; the type that you do not touch before you have tested thoroughly.

Let's hope that they realize this never ending trouble pattern and put a stop to it.

 

And as the famous song says, the sunscreen advice is the only sure thing about this post; everything else is my personal opinion and I reserve the right to be very, very wrong.

Keep smiling !

 

Addition 3:

The measurements of the oculus performance tool. Old vs New renderer.

attachment.php?attachmentid=183792

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=183793

 

Addition 4 :

2.5.1 update 1 shows no improvement (or change) in performance :cry:.

attachment.php?attachmentid=184316

 

 

Addition 5 :

Update 2.5.2.17559.377 shows no improvement (or change) in performance cry.gif

The new update has almost identical performance with previous versions (well within the measurements uncertainty).

 

The new Anti-aliasing method present in the settings (SSAA) is not compatible with VR as it produces distorted view.

It is more or less identical in operation with the Pixel Density setting so it is no big deal.

 

The brown curve (2.5.2 SSAA) is pretty pointless (especially in conjunction with PD other than 1) but included just for fun.

 

 

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DCS-PERF-03.png.82e2ead0c10cdb8d345ddeba6ab9b69c.png

DCSchart-apr19.thumb.png.74b0dfc54ee1295b6a0e6bf92c7333fe.png

DCStable-apr19.thumb.png.c6747a7560aa397eddfa4e4d48c4ad7d.png


Edited by Flighter
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Forcing deferred shading off probably gives the building metashaders crash....

Flighter what you say is very understandable .... but all the actual ED's work is made for DCS running deferred shading, so the only option I see for being able to reach 90fps is to have 1.5 or/and 2.0 installed....

(and the hope that a sensible optimization will come with vulkan !?)

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You must lower your pixel density and accept VR for what it is. If you want a smooth gameplay, put PD = 1 and with your MSAA x4 you will be fine. Otherwise, you can obtain a better balance between graphics and frame rate by setting PD = 1.2 and MSAA x2. Until we have new VGAs, this is the best you can do. Consider that graphics with deferred shading on is much better (at least for daytime missions). Either way, I think you can't hit 90 fps. Be happy with 45 fps and ASW, the game is smooth and fully playable.

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Hi guys.

Unfortunately deferred shading cannot be controlled anymore.

According to the change-log :

Deferred Shading render locked in the game and can not be turned off.  
DCS ceased support of old graphic render without Deferred Shading.

I don't think they realized the implication of this decision in this (small ?) user group.

It's a shame really as the last version was amazing in VR. Instead of going forward we go back.

At the moment I am very disappointed. It's too big of a setback and sacrifice of visual quality to accept it.

Still, what can you do ?

I hope they realize that so many ppl with VR and 1060s and 1070s are thrown out of the game (or to very lesser quality of it) and maintain the older rendering path a little bit longer.

Cheers guys.

JUSTDOGFIGHT server - For Nickname reservation, stats, server map, instructions and other content visit our site justdogfight.com

 

🙂 Smile 🙂

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I haven’t tried the new release but I’ve always flown with DS on in VR and wouldn’t want to turn it off anymore. For me MSAA in VR only reduces the range of spotting tatgets so I rather opt for moving the density slider up. I guess it is a matter of personal preference.

ce535d_9d347b62819c4372b3c485a4f95d2004~mv2.png
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You must lower your pixel density and accept VR for what it is. If you want a smooth gameplay, put PD = 1 and with your MSAA x4 you will be fine. Otherwise, you can obtain a better balance between graphics and frame rate by setting PD = 1.2 and MSAA x2. Until we have new VGAs, this is the best you can do. Consider that graphics with deferred shading on is much better (at least for daytime missions). Either way, I think you can't hit 90 fps. Be happy with 45 fps and ASW, the game is smooth and fully playable.

 

Nessunio, most probably you went for the "deferred shading on" from the beginning and did not experience the fluidity and picture quality without it.

I speculate that if you had, there is no way you'd be saying this.

But again, there are more opinions that people, and all have a valid point. Especially when it comes to preference.

Cheers

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🙂 Smile 🙂

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I play only VR with a 1070 and keep deferred shading always on, but I'm forced to put It off for nightime missions, since night lighting with DS on is still bugged. Apart from that, and some cockpit render that IMHO is better with DS off, the difference in graphics with DS on and off is day and night, much much way better with DS on. To keep a stable frame rate I play with PD 1 and MSAA only 2x, but I think It worths and is absolutely playable even with a 1070. So I'm ok with ED choice, except for what night lighting is concerned. I have stable installed so I do not know if the last 2.5.1 corrects night lighting. If not, It is not a good thing, but only because night missions with DS on are still unplayable, and setting It off permits you to play them.

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Its not like MSAA is a life or death choice. Try turning it off. Yes you will have some jaggies. You will anyway because of VR resolution. So F it and enjoy the frames! It is well known deferred shading and MSAA do NOT play well together.

I5 9600KF, 32GB, 3080ti, G2, PointCTRL

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I cannot disagree with most of the previous posts as they mostly express personal preference.

But regardless of preferences the fact is that :

We had the option to play at almost 90fps with MSAAx4 and PD at 1.5. This is not there anymore. We are forcefully downgraded to 33 fps. This is almost 1/3 of the initial performance.

So I think, it is important to KEEP the choice rather than not. And we should ask for that because it is to our benefit as users, even if some may not be using it.

 

Regarding the MSAA, the sensation of pulsating scenery that is caused by the moving jaggies, totally destroys the immersion factor of VR for me.

Sorry guys but I (we) have payed a lot of money in software and hardware (server owners even more...) to enjoy this game. To have things that were there, taken away, simply does not feel good.

We may at least ask them back, polite and with reason.

And I hope ED is reading this and working on a solution. I hope.

Cheers

JUSTDOGFIGHT server - For Nickname reservation, stats, server map, instructions and other content visit our site justdogfight.com

 

🙂 Smile 🙂

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ED and the third parties can't support two different rendering methods.. and DCS looks a thousand times better with DS, so I understand the locking of that option. I hate to turn off MSAA, but even with it the sim looks far better than with DS off. ED will implement another antialising method.. is matter of time.

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I did a first look in VR yesterday. I got a very nice looking stable 45 FPS. No troubles yet. Tonight i investigate further. :D

 

 

Drop the MSAA to OFF! Vsync ON!


Edited by boedha68

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Old system:I7-4770K(OC 4.5Ghz), Kingston 24 GB DDR3 1600 Mhz,MSI RTX 2080(OC 2070 Mhz), 2 * 500 GB SSD, 3,5 TB HDD, 55' Samsung 3d tv, Trackir 5, Logitech HD Cam, T16000M HOTAS. All DCS modules, maps and campaigns:pilotfly:

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I suspect you're asking the impossible when you want to run without deferred shading. Yes, there is a performance hit, but I have been using VR and deferred shading since it's arrival. MSAA x2 and PD at 1.3 works best for me, and I get a pretty solid 45 FPS.

 

Going forwards, I am sure we will see more optimisation, so I wouldn't despair just yet.

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I suspect you're asking the impossible when you want to run without deferred shading. Yes, there is a performance hit, but I have been using VR and deferred shading since it's arrival. MSAA x2 and PD at 1.3 works best for me, and I get a pretty solid 45 FPS.

 

Going forwards, I am sure we will see more optimisation, so I wouldn't despair just yet.

 

 

 

 

 

And.......WHAT to think when VULCAN API is integrated. :D

 

 

FPS boost ~30 - 40 %

New system:I9-9900KS, Kingston 128 GB DDR4 3200Mhz, MSI RTX 4090, Corsair H150 Pro RGB, 2xSamsung 970 EVO 2Tb, 2xsamsung 970 EVO 1 TB, Scandisk m2 500 MB, 2 x Crucial 1 Tb, T16000M HOTAS, HP Reverb Professional 2, Corsair 750 Watt.

 

Old system:I7-4770K(OC 4.5Ghz), Kingston 24 GB DDR3 1600 Mhz,MSI RTX 2080(OC 2070 Mhz), 2 * 500 GB SSD, 3,5 TB HDD, 55' Samsung 3d tv, Trackir 5, Logitech HD Cam, T16000M HOTAS. All DCS modules, maps and campaigns:pilotfly:

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Hi all.

I hate to be negative but...

The latest update really killed the FPS for VR players. I hope ED takes notice and comes up with a solution.

The disaster comes from the "forced deferred shading".

I used to get about 80 to 90 fps on my test flight which is the Nevada free flight with the KA50.

Now I get 30 to 37 with terrible visuals (anything below 45 is catastrophic for VR as all hell breaks loose).

 

As probably most of you know the deferred shading has a very big enemy called MSAA.

Which (MSAA) is an absolute must (for me at least) for the low native resolution of the Oculus headset.

So I had the deferred shading off, MSAA at x4, shadows at medium and pixel density at 1.5. And I had a nice 80 to 90 fps. With ASW on a SOLID 45.

 

All this heaven is lost as the deferred shading is now forcibly on. I have to either turn off shadows completely or turn off MSAA.

With MSAA at x2 I almost get my 45 fps with bad visuals that kill the VR immersion.

 

I really hope the ED will reconsider their decision forcing this very questionably good / bad (depends who you ask) shading method on.

 

My system:

 

i7 6700k at 4.6G

Gigabytes G1 GTX1080 / 8GB ram / 2Ghz GPU clock

16GB ram / 3200 Mhz

Separate SSD disks for DCS and windows

WIN10/64 pro.

 

x2 :cry:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Asteroids

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Update this

 

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I have an 8700k, 32gb ram, 1080ti and everything on an SSD.

 

Shadows medium, everything else high, heat blur and Lens flare off, msa X2. Preload radius 100% grass and clutter 100%.

 

Pixel density 1.5 and using the Samsung Odyssey. Runs smoothly for me. Only odd issue is some dragging black when moving your head fast from side to side. Overall moving your head normally it's not jittery.

 

Msa off doesn't look as good. I could reduce the black dragging I bet by reducing shadows to low instead of medium. Or reducing PD to 1.4.

Asus ROG Strix Z790-E | Core i9 13900K-NZXT Kraken X73 AIO | 32GB DDR5 G Skill Neo 6600mhz | 2TB Sk Hynix P41 Platinum nvme |1TB Evo 970 Plus nvme | OCZ Trion 150 960GB | 256GB Samsung 830 | 1TB Samsung 850 EVO | Gigabyte OC 4090  | Phanteks P600S | 1000W MSI  MPG A1000G | LG C2 42 Evo 3840x2160 @ 120hz

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Turn MSAA off and force it through the Nvidia CP.

That doesn't work in VR, the dozens of posts/thread on this exact topic have proven that enough.

 

That being said, supporting 2 rendering methods only creates more workload and more possible bugs: look at the missing textures for cargo ships, the Tornado canopy, ground vehicle windows, ... That's fixed as per 2.5.1 .

PBR/DS is the future. No way around it.


Edited by Elysian Angel
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Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2
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OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset

 

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That doesn't work in VR, the dozens of posts/thread on this exact topic has proven that enough.

 

That being said, supporting 2 rendering methods only creates more workload and more possible bugs: look at the missing textures for cargo ships, the Tornado canopy, ground vehicle windows, ... That's fixed as per 2.5.1 .

PBR/DS is the future. No way around it.

 

Sorry to hear that. As far as I understand the solution to this problem would be to give us a better AA option, rather than taking a step backwards and disabling DS. I don't use VR and I also turned MSAA off.

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Yup people who fly in VR have been asking for a better AA method ever since deferred shading was first introduced. There were some very informative posts about how MSAA and deferred shading simply don't work together, due to technical reasons.

Spoiler

Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2
Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals

OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset

 

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And.......WHAT to think when VULCAN API is integrated. :D

 

 

FPS boost ~30 - 40 %

 

At the time we probably have GTX 1580 out and Vulcan doesn't matter so much anymore :D

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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There was another thread relating to night lighting where people discussed this.. but fixing deferred shading along with msaa will most likely require a big engine change and most likely not going to happen anytime soon.

 

Using Nvidia control panel doesn't work if you play in VR. I'd rather turn down settings than turn down pixel density. The reason I got a better VR headset was so I could see more clearly not to turn settings down to the point where it matches visually where i was on the occulus.

 

Elite dangerous for example runs fine with msaa and ultra VR quality presets. Dcs just needs more optimizations.

Asus ROG Strix Z790-E | Core i9 13900K-NZXT Kraken X73 AIO | 32GB DDR5 G Skill Neo 6600mhz | 2TB Sk Hynix P41 Platinum nvme |1TB Evo 970 Plus nvme | OCZ Trion 150 960GB | 256GB Samsung 830 | 1TB Samsung 850 EVO | Gigabyte OC 4090  | Phanteks P600S | 1000W MSI  MPG A1000G | LG C2 42 Evo 3840x2160 @ 120hz

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I messed around with Reshade and it does yield smoother frame rate with better image quality compared to in-app tweaks. Set up includes 7700k, 1080, Vive Pro. It seems MSAA can cause significant drop in FPS, but without it the edge shimmering is bad especially on buildings and towers. I turned off in-app MSAA, Terrain and Texture high, Water medium, Shadow flat, anisotropic filter 16x. For Reshade setting, I simply use FXAA on, HDR on, Adaptive sharpening on. Flying low altitude in Vegas map is fairly smooth, and shimmering is minimal (45 fps smooth that is). I'd love to go higher than 1.0 on the PD setting but ran into reprojection issue.

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/

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I'm also messing around a bit and it seems in vr PD 1.2 and msaa 2x and AA 2x i can get quite stable 45 fps but not flying on vegas

The image quality in 2.5.1 seems better than previous versions with msaa 2x only but may be it is just an impression.

The strange thing is, in my graphics options I only have msaa 2x or 4x.

has the 8x disappeared?

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