FFB implementation

This first iteration of the FFB implementation is not usable for G940 users.

I know that there are issues regarding the FFB2 and a "correct" FFB implementation. Afaik, one or both of the force axes have to be inverted for it to work properly. That is what I gathered from FFB2 user reports for other modules.

So I thought, if the axes are making problems for me, as a G940 user, the I just have to invert some axes. But I can not get it to work half way decently ...

With default settings (no axes swapped, nothing inverted), for my G940 the trim behaves like this:

no.) physical stick at trim / resulting new force center / stick position at controls indicator

1) 100% back / 100% right / 100% back + 100% right

2) 100% fwd / 100% left / 100% fwd + 100% left

3) 100% left / 100% fwd / 100% left + 100% fwd

4) 100% right / 100% back / 100% right + 100% back

Ok, so the force axes are 90 degrees off, but the controls indicator is really weired ... the axes are added somehow.

If I now check the "swap axes" option at the FFB options, the force direction matches the stick deflection ... in some way.

I.e. 100% right / 100% right / 200% righ

Yes, 200% deflection of the controls indicator. If the virtual stick is now glued to the right hand side and does not move if i deflect the stick to the left. I have to deflect the stick completely to the left to get the virtual stick at least centered again. I.e. just centering the stick and pressing trim does nothing. I have to move the stick to the compelte opposite side and press trim to neutralise the previous trim (i.e. to re-center the force center)

+1

Still an early work in progress. We are trying to fix the swappingnhibg. So stay tuned.

Thank you for letting us have this early iteration of FFB.

AFAIK the MS sidewinder force feedback 2 - force axis are swapped compared to other force feedback joysticks like the logitech G940 (IIRC Microsoft doing Microsoft things, despite setting the specification). MSFFB2 Y force axis -> X position axis (roll) and X force axis -> Y position axis (pitch).

I believe the usual DCS FF Tune settings are

• MS Sidewinder FFB2 - Swap (force) Axis
  
• Logitech G940 - Normal
  

with the Mi-8MTV2 an exception

• MS Sidewinder FFB2 - Invert X (pitch force feedback)
  

but it would be better if FF Tune settings were consistent across modules.

My current FF Tune setting for the Gazelle is

• MS Sidewinder FFB2 - Invert Y (roll force feedback)
  

As mentioned, using the Magnetic Brake doubles the trim as the sim still assumes the FFB stick will remain centred (which it no longer does).

Tested in DCS (Steam) 1.5.4.56500

I was confused by this but now I understand what is wrong and how to make it work. Ramsay has it correct, but here is some detail as to what is going on.

For the Microsoft Forcefeedback 2, in the Gazelle, you need to uncheck Swap Axis, and check Invert Y.

For other sticks that normally don't need the axis swapped, you'll need to check Swap Axis, and then check or uncheck Invert X or Invert Y as needed to get things moving in the right direction. This will get trim working. But you may need to use Invert X to fix the Y movement, and Invert Y to fix the X movement. That is not normal, but it is what I found on the MS FFB 2.

Unfortunately, this will not fix Magnetic Brake. The above changes will get Magnetic Brake working in the correct directions, but I think Polychop is applying both a FFB Magnetic Brake effect (hold the stick when the Brake button is pressed) while at the same time applying a non FFB axis center adjustment. The result is using Magnetic Brake causes the FFB stick to move _and_ the axis center point to move and it amplifies or doubles the joystick position as far as the Gazelle sees it. Hence Magnetic Brake on the Gazelle is non-functional at this time.

If you still want Magnetic Brake functionality, you'll need to use simFFB (which implements both Trim and Magnetic Brake correctly) until Polychop can fix things.

It's a WIP, so I'm just happy to see them working on it. Thanks guys! And this confusion isn't their fault. I did tests on several aircraft in DCS and realized this is a point of confusion for many developers getting the axis incorrect, or incorrectly applying a FFB force to the stick while at the same time moving the virtual stick point as if the stick is not a FFB stick. It's a serious problem in DCS and I hope everyone can get on the same page one day and make it consistent.

I explain the reasons for all this below.

As stated by others, the MS FFB 2 force feedback axis are reversed compared to many (most?) other FFB sticks. This is normally solved by clicking the Swap Axis check box on the FF Tune screen where you set up your control axis. This check box doesn't swap the X and Y axis controls. It swaps which axis the FFB effect is applied to. In most other sims, and also in simFFB, you must similarly swap the axis for a MS FFB 2.

Normally in DCS (at least the last time I tested in detail), for the MS FFB 2, if Swap Axis is unchecked, when DCS applies a force to push the stick to the left or right, it will instead move the stick forward or back. So with a FFB 2, you must click Invert Axis. With other sticks, this is unnecessary.

But in the Gazelle, you have to have it unchecked. The Gazelle developers started with a MS FFB 2 stick for their testing, so they made their software match that stick, and assumed the correct state is Swap Axis unchecked. That is incorrect. So for now, uncheck Swap Axis for an MS FFB 2, but check it for other sticks until Polychop fixes it.

The second problem is the Invert X and Invert Y. These should invert the direction of force on the X and Y axis as seen by the aircraft (X and Y should refer to X and Y of the virtual stick in the aircraft, not the X and Y of the real FFB stick in your hand). These should not change because of checking or unchecking the Swap Axis. But in the Gazelle, Invert X and Invert Y are being applied to the axis from the stick's perspective. So with Swap Axis unchecked with the MS FFB 2, X and Y FFB effects are correct, but the X axis is moving in the wrong directly. You would think that you must click Invert X to fix this. But in fact, you must click Invert Y to fix the X axis. Similarly, you must click Invert X to fix the Y axis if needed. So you may have to play with these to get them right.

As for the magnetic brake issue on the Gazelle, I think all that is needed there is that when the stick is a FFB stick, Magnetic brake should _only_ apply a FFB force to hold the stick. But if the stick is not a FFB stick (or FFB is disabled overall), then Magnetic Brake must move the virtual stick center to allow a person to relax their hand on a nonFFB (sprung) stick. This has also been a point of huge confusion dating back to the original Blackshark with it's trim/brake functions.

I may be off on my assessment of this. I'm going mostly on what I thought I used to do in other DCS modules. I.e. click Swap Axis, and then if the X axis is moving in the wrong direction, I would click Invert X. But it seems FFB has gone back and forth from working and being broken several times in DCS, so it has gotten confused by many developers using different methods to implement FFB and the FFB Tune menus.

Thanks for the tip Drakoz! I tried and it worked with these settings:

I think I need to tune a bit more the forces (the percentages) because it seems too choppy. But with the tics on those 2 items the axes are now fine.

Hello,

Im still having issues with Trim on the G940 with the SA342.

Been searching for a status of the problem - just bumping this even though its probably still being fixed.

Im still having issues with Trim on the G940 with the SA342.

 

Been searching for a status of the problem

The Gazelle's FFB has been 'normalised' with other DCS Modules since zaelu's post of the 13/09/2016

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06/11/2016

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- FFB is set as following for MS FFB2 : Swap axis checked, invert X unchecked, invert Y unchecked

so AFAIK the correct setting for your G940 in 1.5.6 should be

• Swap Axis - unchecked
  
• Invert X and Y Axis - unchecked
  

In DCS 1.5.5 the Gazelle's force feedback is setup to mimic (be compatible with) none force feedback sticks - this means the cyclic in the cockpit will not match the FFB joystick position, but the controls indicator (RCtrl+Enter) does.

So when setting up force feedback force axis, you'll need to take note of the 'controls indicator' and ignore or hide the 3D cockpit cyclic.

When the cyclic is left and a FFB player presses the mag brake, the controls indicator shows left trim. When the player releases his stick, the physical FFB stick remains left but the cockpit stick returns to centre - the control indicator shows left trim and the real gazelle cyclic would be locked/centred left, just as the FFB stick is.

In prior DCS versions the FFB offset was being added to 3D cyclic position and the adjusted trim was double what it should have been, the current behaviour fixes this but is perhaps still WIP.

I really appreciate the work of remaining guys in Polychop, I'm a G940 user and I hope this feature go out of "WIP" in one of the next patch.

Thanks

OK, I wrote this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3275725#post3275725

I have a FFB2 and I have no problem with it (since 2016).

Otherwise, my Logitech G940 does not function in 2.1 and 1.5, and in the two versions of DCS my Logitech has different reaction (both wrong).

Are there other settings to make it work?

Thanks

OK, I wrote this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3275725#post3275725

 

 

I have a FFB2 and I have no problem with it (since 2016).

Otherwise, my Logitech G940 does not function in 2.1 and 1.5, and in the two versions of DCS my Logitech has different reaction (both wrong).

 

 

Are there other settings to make it work?

Just to confirm, when you say that your G940 isn't working, do you mean that it moves incorrectly, or does not move at all? If it moves incorrectly, follow Pat01's comments in the forum topic you linked to. Hopefully that gives the right settings. But those settings are probably only right for the Microsoft FFB 2. They will cause the G940 to move incorrectly. So....

If those settings do not work, review my post earlier in this topic (https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2897668&postcount=5) for an explanation as to why your FFB 2 works, but your G940 is moving incorrectly. It all boils down to the settings for the "Swap Axis" and "Invert X" and "Invert Y" settings. Get these right and your G940 will work.

Sadly, not all FFB sticks follow the common standard for which axis is X and Y (Swap axis) as well as which direction the FFB stick should move (Invert X and Invert Y). Hence why we have these options. When Polychop first developed FFB for the Gazelle, they tested with a MS FFB 2, so their default settings matched that stick. But the rest of the DCS aircraft have the default that normally works with sticks like the G940. Recently, I believe, Polychop fixed all this so that the Gazelle works like all other aircraft in DCS.

Play around with Swap Axis and Invert X/Y and you'll get it. If you still have trouble, let me know and I'll confirm the settings for both sticks in v1.5 and v2.x as I have both a G940 and a MS FFB 2.

Hi Drakoz, thanks a lot for your reply!

My G940 moves incorrectly, but it isn't the only issue... I have a bad feeling with it, because, when i push the trim button, the centering force does not decrease with result that I have a lot of bump on my "Home cyclic".

I read your old post , it seems to be good for one game session, but in the next something goes wrong.

Anyway I'll try again and i'll give you a more detailed feedback

How FFB works in Gazelle exactly ? It feels different from other choppers. In KA-50 I just need press and hold trim button then move the stick where I want then leave it there. Gazelle behaves differently, the stick seems trying to move back little bit.

I tried in 1.5.7, with the helicopter on the ground it seems all right (except for the cyclic position in the virtual cockpit), flying changes everything,

it seems like axes are inverted, (I tried to check invert X and Y, same thing). I give an input the FFB motors make the opposite movement, it's crazy and makes this nice module unusable. I'll try in 2.1 in next days

Hypnos, I compared the settings for the G940 vs. the MS FFB 2 in both DCS 1.5.7 and DCS 2.1.1 (all latest updates as of today), and all is working as it should be. Meaning, for the G940, in the FFB Tune menu you should have Swap Axis, Invert X, and Invert Y all unchecked. For the MS FFB2, all you should change is the Swap Axis (checked). These settings are the same for other aircraft in DCS. This also matches other sims and games I've used these sticks on. So, yes, Polychop fixed the FFB for the Gazelle to match the rest of the world.

But it sounds like you are describing other issues. You may be having other software or hardware issues with your G940. I suggest you load simFFB and use that to test the G940 to see if the FFB effects work in the correct direction.

simFFB has an "invert" check box. For the G940, leave it unchecked. For the MS FFB2, check it. simFFB will allow you to perform the equivalent of a cyclic brake and "hat" type trim function on your stick with no sim running. Hence a good way to test your stick.

If you want, you can use simFFB in DCS. Load DCS and enter your mission. Once loaded, alt-tab to simFFB and click "Init DirectX Input" in the Options menu and now simFFB will control all your FFB functions. For helicopters this works better than in DCS, but for fixed wing, you will lose the effects of wind on the control surfaces (like in a stall). I prefer the feel of simFFB and it is completely compatible with DCS FFB, trim and cycle brake functions. Also, the G940 can be made to feel much better (better forces) using simFFB's settings. I wish all sims implemented this kind of FFB (damper, friction, spring) feel in game.

Hope this helps.

Today I tried with 2.1, same thing, I have no issue with my joy, I have all the helicopter modules in DCS and all of them works very fine with my stick, I can't understand...

SimFFB is good for fine tuning, but my joy need a straitjacket (only for Gazelle) ;)

I would like developers to consider the idea that something does not go with no MS FFB2 joystick.

Drakoz, thanks a lot for your help, you are precious

Hi Gents,

maybe this thread could help

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=195160

Hi Gents,

maybe this thread could help

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=195160

Hello Pat01,

I have read your post carefully, applying all the suggested procedures, but without success.

I think the problem is not in my joystick.

I don't know if in a .trk you can find something.

It would be interesting to know if someone use a G940 and have no problems, and how it configured this SIM.

Thanks a lot

My G940 works well with the Gazelle. Nothing special in regards to the set-up - no curves, no inverted axes, no FFB axes inverted.

Maybe you want to try to start from scratch with your input config. Delete your Saved Games\Config\Input\SA342\joystick folder (after making a backup) and start over mapping the controls. Maybe some odd setting managed to hide in the files in your case ...?

My G940 works well with the Gazelle. Nothing special in regards to the set-up - no curves, no inverted axes, no FFB axes inverted.

 

Maybe you want to try to start from scratch with your input config. Delete your Saved Games\Config\Input\SA342\joystick folder (after making a backup) and start over mapping the controls. Maybe some odd setting managed to hide in the files in your case ...?

I tried Yesterday with input folder, same...

No curves, nothing, doesn't works

Hypnos, please explain once more, step by step, what you do, what you see, and what you would expect to happen. What do you do with your joystick, what does the controls indicator show, what does the in-game cyclic do and how does the helo behave?

Ok, I try with 1.5.7 latest build, no saturation, no dead zone, no curves, all unchecked.

My normal tecnique is: push trim button - make attitude changes - release trim button.

With heli on ground is almost normal, i make my inputs , control indicators are ok, but the virtual cyclic come back to center position... not only, during my movements with trim button pressed, I don't have a force gradient reduction.

In flight is very difficult for me to describe what happen, however when my inputs are very little, the helicopter reactions are almost good but, when I have to manouver hardest, the FFB motor react in the opposite direction of my imput, seems like it want to mantain the previous attitude but with a violent and uncontrollable reaction.In all this confusion I don't have a force gradient reduction when I press and hold the trim button.

Thank for your attention

Ok, I try with 1.5.7 latest build, no saturation, no dead zone, no curves, all unchecked.

My normal tecnique is: push trim button - make attitude changes - release trim button.

With heli on ground is almost normal, i make my inputs , control indicators are ok, but the virtual cyclic come back to center position... not only, during my movements with trim button pressed, I don't have a force gradient reduction.

In flight is very difficult for me to describe what happen, however when my inputs are very little, the helicopter reactions are almost good but, when I have to manouver hardest, the FFB motor react in the opposite direction of my imput, seems like it want to mantain the previous attitude but with a violent and uncontrollable reaction.In all this confusion I don't have a force gradient reduction when I press and hold the trim button.

 

 

Thank for your attention

same behaviour, MS FFB2, DCS 2.1.1 . I'm trying to understand also what the FFB slider in the special menu exactly does.

That holding the trim button depressed does not disable the forces ... is "ok" (as in, we all suffer from this, but I haven't seen this confirmed as a bug by PC).

But the main issue ... that is really strange. You say, you deflect the joystick, see the cyclic do the same, but when you release the trim button, the cyclic returns to the center, but your joystick remains where you trimmed it?

Almost sounds as what someone else stated somewhere here: seems that the trim does not set the stick position and the helo follows the stick, but that trim sets the desired attitude and the stick follows the helo. (This sounds even stranger as I type it ...)

I have to experiment more, but I can not recall seeing this behaviour. Or perhaps the effect is not as pronouced as it seems to be in your case? I mean, I DO find that flying the helo is ... somehow weired - but I have not exactly figgured out, why it feels that way for me.

I'm trying to understand also what the FFB slider in the special menu exactly does.

You can set a curve for the two axes, like you would normally do in the control setup for an axis. But as using curves with FFB sticks has issues, PC implemented their own way to apply curves.

(the issue is probably DCS core related: if you set an axis where your your cyclic deflects 25% if you deflect your joystick 50% and then press trim, DCS tells the module "set the forces so that the stick is set to 25%" ... all while you are holding it still at 50%)

edit: PC solution does not suffer from this issue, but I found it unpleasant to use anyway. But as an advice: start with small curves (like 5...10...MAYBE 15) - otherwise it will probably really mess up your flying. ;-)