M2000C PFM or AFM?

Hey Folks,

i was wondering and it's a very important question... will the mirage be a PFM/EFM or an AFM?

EFM IS NOT the same as PFM.

EFM is the designation for a "External Flight Model". A Flight Model not designed by ED or BST.

An External Flight Model could be as advanced as the developer want or can do with the tools and information available.

As an example, the C-101 and the Hawk. Both have an EFM that is at the level of the SFM. In future updates, this EFM could be updated to a AFM/PFM acording to the developers. But these model will be always an EFM (EXTERNAL FLIGHT MODEL) like the LNS models or any other 3rd developer.

I know this, and it doesn't answer my question :)

What do mean SFM, AFM and PFM anyway ?

so ed set the EFM is just sick,

we have the flight model but which level is it? It's EFM! wtf, EFM is？ Have no comment, no one will tell you, I try to get the answer, they just say EFM, so I only buy the pfm in the future.

Just like you want to buy a car, you ask which engine does it have, they told to you it has the engine. If you ask them is it an L4 or V8 engine? They still told you, welp, it has a engine, which type of engine have no comment. That's all the feeling of EFM to me. Top secert of DCS.

What do mean SFM, AFM and PFM anyway ?

so ed set the EFM is just sick,

we have the flight model but which level is it? It's EFM! wtf, EFM is？ Have no comment, no one will tell you, I try to get the answer, they just say EFM, so I only buy the pfm in the future.

Just like you want to buy a car, you ask which engine does it have, they told to you it has the engine. If you ask them is it an L4 or V8 engine? They still told you, welp, it has a engine, which type of engine have no comment. That's all the feeling of EFM to me. Top secert of DCS.

Seriously guys, there's a sticky in the Official section explaining it all:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

If you need more info, the modding section is good, especially the F16 AFM thread, Redbeard's Beginners Guide and the thread on SFM tuning to understand the differences.

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model.

 

You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned.

 

I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here.

 

This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

 

Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering.

 

Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible.

 

Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation!

 

Thanks for the info; would you be able to tell us what level the flight model will be at beta release?

Thanks for info CptSmiley!

When you have time tell more stories about the FM development. :beer:

To Buzzles:

It's a little about Taxonomy and Rhetoric.

I have read that product terms for many times, as they said EFM could be every FM, known as sfm/afm/pfm, used by the 3rd party studio.

Under this explain, "external" just means "the FM used by 3rd party", and you know the antonym of external is internal, and for the dcs studios, that means ED and Belsimtek as well known. Under this way, "internal FM" that include SFM/AFM/PFM for every first party studio's module. Also for the EFM, it should include SFM/AFM/PFM for every 3rd party studios' module as the same way.

So, if I ask the actually accuracy FM of 3rd partys' module, someone just give the answer "EFM", that means "I give the answer, but no meaning".

Above all that, I said that EFM is just a sick, totally different with S/A/PFM, they are under different systematics.

As an example, the C-101 and the Hawk. Both have an EFM that is at the level of the SFM. In future updates, this EFM could be updated to a AFM/PFM acording to the developers. But these model will be always an EFM (EXTERNAL FLIGHT MODEL) like the LNS models or any other 3rd developer.

Incorrect, they have SFM, SFM is universal, data driven flight model provided by simulation engine as default, and used for AI aircraft as well. They do not currently have EFM, and there is no such thing as EFM at SFM level.

On the other hand, yes, AFM and PFM are terms ED use for their own producs while EFM is umbrella term for non-SFM flight models developed by other parties than ED.

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

Also, a nicely done AFM is pretty darn acceptable as far as I'm concerned. Yes PFM would be nicer, but it needs more data and more effort, which may not always be feasible or possible, crying "why no PFM" isn't really productive in my opinion.

However, I agree and share the demand for a EFM to any level, and personally will not get any module in SFM. Hoepfully Mirage will release with EFM already, or failing that, will get it very shortly, at which point I will happily add it to my hangar :).

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

No, the misunderstanding is here, as Flycat nicely explained:

...EFM is just a sick, totally different with S/A/PFM, they are under different systematics...

 

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model...

Welcome back Smiley, glad to hear you again!

Bye

Phant

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model.

 

You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned.

 

I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here.

 

This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

 

Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering.

 

Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible.

 

Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation!

 

EXCELLENT news. This totally satisfied me. Honestly sometimes all the sweating about flight models is tiresome. The honest to god experience of flying the aircraft doesn't require perfection, just enough realism to be a good showing of characteristics representative of the real life counterpart, and it sounds like that will certainly be accomplished. Hell, as a real world pilot I can tell you flying the sim aircraft is more difficult than the real thing 95 percent of the time anyway!

Thanks for the write up smiley! Looking forward to trying out the flight model.

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model.

 

You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned.

 

I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here.

 

This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

 

Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering.

 

Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible.

 

Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation!

 

Hi CptSmiley,

Thank you very much for the clarification. I had asked about the flight model as well and your reply answers all of my questions. I appreciate you taking the time and it sounds like the flight model will be exactly what I am hoping for!

Every part of this projects looks fantastic from the external model, cockpit model, custom radar, INS, and now the flight model. Unquestionably worthy of a pre-purchase. :)

-Nick

PS - Love the Sagan quote in your signature!

If I read well...http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2477079#post2477079

Key Features that the M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM will include:

• 
  
• Advanced flight model providing realistic performance and flight characteristics
  
• Highly detailed 3D model and animations
  
• Highly detailed and accurate 6 DOF cockpit with mouse-interactive controls
  
• Realistic modelling of aircraft systems including electrical, fuel, hydraulics, lighting, engine and navigation
  
• High resolution 3D model and cockpit textures, including specular and bump mapping
  

• Advanced flight model

There is so much confusion about this that I would encourage ED to revise their product terms.

The developer stated that it will be an EFM, not an AFM. Many people are misunderstanding this.

Yes, it will have a EFM. When? Not trying to sound glib, but when we feel that it is ready. Right now it is not. It is not even an alpha.

I bang on about this nearly every time it comes up because I think it's important but my opinion is exactly as VincentLaw says: They need to revise them.

It's all well and good having a sticky on the forum but most of their customers don't read the forums. Hence why we have massive amounts of confusion.

Something like Realistic Flight Model and Simple Flight Model with a caveat I think would be a good compromise.

For example:

"The F42938 module sports a Realistic Flight Model (to the 3rd party standard*), boasts 4500 AMRAAMS, etc etc. "

"The A3410 module has a Simple Flight Model but will later be upgraded to the Realistic Flight Model etc etc."

"RFM (3rd party dev) means the flight model is held to a very high standard but this standard is not guaranteed by Eagle Dynamics."

If I read well...http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2477079#post2477079

 

Key Features that the M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM will include:

 

 

• Advanced flight model providing realistic performance and flight characteristics
  
• Highly detailed 3D model and animations
  
• Highly detailed and accurate 6 DOF cockpit with mouse-interactive controls
  
• Realistic modelling of aircraft systems including electrical, fuel, hydraulics, lighting, engine and navigation
  
• High resolution 3D model and cockpit textures, including specular and bump mapping
  

I read this and it confused me a lot... AFM then they say realistic... realistic is PFM

I read this and it confused me a lot... AFM then they say realistic... realistic is PFM

While we're talking definitions, you should also define "realistic". The Su-25T has AFM not PFM and it's arguably the most realistic feeling aircraft in the sim. There's a degree of subjectivity in there, but unless you're a real life pilot of any of the modules, that's true of all of them.

The only reason that people know the difference between AFM and PFM is because ED made up labels and applied them to different modules. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of people wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between the AFM Su-25T and the PFM A-10C in terms of fidelity of underlying flight modelling. The only way we know the difference is because we've been told.

 

"The F42938 module sports a Realistic Flight Model (to the 3rd party standard*), boasts 4500 AMRAAMS, etc etc. "

 

"The A3410 module has a Simple Flight Model but will later be upgraded to the Realistic Flight Model etc etc."

Cool, when are they going to be available for pre-sale? And will the F42938 come with or without the canard wing flange brackets? I hope we get the later version with the mud sprockets!

:music_whistling: :music_whistling:

Thanks Cpt. Smiley, that was the answer and clarification that most of us have been looking for.

While we're talking definitions, you should also define "realistic". The Su-25T has AFM not PFM and it's arguably the most realistic feeling aircraft in the sim. There's a degree of subjectivity in there, but unless you're a real life pilot of any of the modules, that's true of all of them.

 

The only reason that people know the difference between AFM and PFM is because ED made up labels and applied them to different modules. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of people wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between the AFM Su-25T and the PFM A-10C in terms of fidelity of underlying flight modelling. The only way we know the difference is because we've been told.

I agree, the SU-25T flies wonderfully, although all of the major aircraft in this sim have excellent and realistic flight dynamics. Honestly people get too hung up on the PFM, AFM stuff. A solid AFM can be as good as a PFM.

Cool, when are they going to be available for pre-sale? And will the F42938 come with or without the canard wing flange brackets? I hope we get the later version with the mud sprockets!

 

:music_whistling: :music_whistling:

In September 2099. And yes, it will come with all the flange you can handle, and then some.

Beginning or end of September J7G?