wernst Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 What works for me is: 7. Just glide then over the runway while keeping the stick back a reasonable amount - you'll then gently flare and lose speed before touching down with all three points at 190-200kmh. This can take a short while to happen which isn't a problem - the runways are plenty long yes, that's also for me the only way I can manage to get the plane down safely. Mostly this landing attitude takes up to 2.000 m of the runway length for full stop. Yes, all DCS world "runways are plenty long" - made for heavy metal. Please note, that at the time when the Fw 190 D-9 was going to service most of the German airfields were grass strips with an average runway length of 800 to 1200 m. Only very few fields were later (1942 -) extended with concrete runways with a length up to 1400 m. I'll get my 190 D-9 rating only when I'm able to land this plane on runways not longer than 1.000 m. W.E. (PPL Pilot from Germany) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrohde Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Now I became to better understand Erich Brunotte's recipys - free tailwheel, full power just from the start, release brakes! Stick to the center and here we go... Seems the best way to TO for me because of the best and predictable controllability during takeoff. By the way - I learned to perform hammerhead just following his directions. :) Question for you - did Erich trim for takeoff? Slight elevator up, or neutral trim? Also, what's the "hammerhead" in this context? Thanks. PC: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X | MSI Suprim GeForce 3090 TI | ASUS Prime X570-P | 128GB DDR4 3600 RAM | 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit Gear: HP Reverb G2 | JetPad FSE | VKB Gunfighter Pro Mk.III w/ MCG Ultimate VKBcontrollers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted August 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 13, 2014 Question for you - did Erich trim for takeoff? Slight elevator up, or neutral trim? Also, what's the "hammerhead" in this context? Thanks. I will ask. It seems to me that this was missed in our talk. Hammerhead is a 180 deg rudder turn as the plane flies vertical. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wernst Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Just repeated the landing. 760 m from the threshold but the point of touchdown was in 400 (!) m from the threshold. So the real roll was about 360 m. I think that even this bad (400 m is obviously bad!) approach gives you a chance to use 800 m airstrip safely. Congrats, Yo-Yo. I do not have a flight instructor (SEP) licence but I herewith will sign your Fw 190 D-9 rating. You have passed the most difficult task of D-9 flying. This is not irony but true admiration. When reading your thread I begin to understand what my problem could be. You mentioned, that touch down is 400 after the threshold, which is a fair assumption. Consequently, in your case, it leaves 360 m for the landing roll. An old tail dragger wisdom says, that landing is only completed when the plane has stopped fully. It means, after I get the plane down on the runway, I’m half through, it’s part 1. To slow down from 180 km/h to zero is the next landing challenge, it’s part 2. I apply brakes always carefully as I was used to do this with my own (real) taildragger. Once I have seen a tail dragger after landing not only in headstand but in full rollover. That image still effects me deeply. And here we are. Most of the WWII landing fields were grass strips. Grass does not only moderate bumping and jumping, but it has a natural resistance against any turning wheel. Grass is a natural brake assistance which we are missing in DCS world. I probably would pass my Fw 190 D-9 rating if there is any grass strip available in DCS world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 From DoW server, got flak'd while strafing. My skins/liveries for Fw 190 D-9 and Bf 109 K-4: My blog or Forums. Open for requests as well. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastfreddie Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Now I became to better understand Erich Brunotte's recipys - free tailwheel, full power just from the start, release brakes! Stick to the center and here we go... Seems the best way to TO for me because of the best and predictable controllability during takeoff. By the way - I learned to perform hammerhead just following his directions. :) Also you get off the ground very quickly so there is less time fooling around with rudder controls. Now on these hammerhead directions because the Dora seems very different than the P51 in hammerheads. I've had the engine cut out if I cut the throttle to soon and she doesn't seem to like to stall like the Mustang. I can generally get the Mustang to fall over for me in style but the Dora puts up a fight most of the way. It also seems to take much longer for me to recover complete control in the Dora. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wernst Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Just repeated the landing. 760 m from the threshold but the point of touchdown was in 400 (!) m from the threshold. So the real roll was about 360 m. I think that even this bad (400 m is obviously bad!) approach gives you a chance to use 800 m airstrip safely. Hi Yo-Yo Just to confirm and close my discussion about the runway length required to land the D-9. After many attempts I was able to perform some full stop landings in the range of 700 to 800 m runway length. You are fully right, it IS possible! Instead of flying with a standard (more steep) angle of attack I tried a more flat approach configuration. I kept the speed during the last 500 m before the threshold up to 250 km/h IAS with a power setting of 1700 -2000 rpm. For the touchdown point I have not the real threshold in view but an imaginary threshold, which is placed about 300 m before the start of the runway. When reaching my imaginary threshold (not the real one) I reduce throttle slowly while holding the plane in smooth flare. When getting tin can height above ground I further reduce throttle slowly until the plane settles down in a 3 point landing configuration. As soon as I feel touchdown I apply brakes . . . but I don’t use the single left and right rudder wheel brakes but the “Wheel brake Both” function (keyboard “W”). I know, it's a cheat function. This cheat function applies brake power to both brakes equally, with maximum effect. It keeps the plane straight on the runway, avoiding any damage, like headstand or mowing the grass. Happy flying - safe landings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox One Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Any comment from developers about the not negligible difference in speed between cockpit indicator and external view at landing approach speeds? The difference is almost 20Km/h. Could this be Pitot reading errors due to slow flying at higher AoA? Feature or bug? My DCS videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobek Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 IAS != GS. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted August 14, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 14, 2014 Any comment from developers about the not negligible difference in speed between cockpit indicator and external view at landing approach speeds? The difference is almost 20Km/h. Could this be Pitot reading errors due to slow flying at higher AoA? Feature or bug? a bug Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox One Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 IAS != GS. That's right, obviously, so I take the answer is - it is a feature. If that's so, and pilot's instructions for real Fw 190, be it A or D say landing approach speed should be made at 200-220Km/h, I challenge you to do a landing in the Dora while flying the approach with the cockpit airspeed indicator at 200Km/h. And please post the video. Thanks My DCS videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClearDark Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) That's right, obviously, so I take the answer is - it is a feature. If that's so, and pilot's instructions for real Fw 190, be it A or D say landing approach speed should be made at 200-220Km/h, I challenge you to do a landing in the Dora while flying the approach with the cockpit airspeed indicator at 200Km/h. And please post the video. Thanks Challenge accepted, approach at 210ish, touchdown at 205ish, not the perfect landing but nothing is damaged. Just did the Instant Action -> Final Approach, feels like there's some winds there too.challengefw190.trk Edited August 14, 2014 by ClearDark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strix Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I cant land that damn thing... But I did land my P-51D after 3 attempt!! Never flown that bird before.... And its a piece of cake to land compared to Dora.... Well, try, try, try again....... Win 10 64. GTX1080 ti 11 Gb, Intel i-5, 16 Gb ram, SSD 1,5 Tb, 2 Terrabyte HD, Monitor ASUS XG32V 144Hz, Slaw Milans Rudder Pedals BF109F :thumbup:, Joystick - HOTAS Warthog, Throttle - HOTAS Warthog, TrackIR V5. Pimax 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strix Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Any comment from developers about the not negligible difference in speed between cockpit indicator and external view at landing approach speeds? The difference is almost 20Km/h. Could this be Pitot reading errors due to slow flying at higher AoA? Feature or bug? Noticed it to, but haven't heard anything about it.... if the true speed is according to external view, and not indicator, then I do understand why its so difficult. 20kmh is a lot! Win 10 64. GTX1080 ti 11 Gb, Intel i-5, 16 Gb ram, SSD 1,5 Tb, 2 Terrabyte HD, Monitor ASUS XG32V 144Hz, Slaw Milans Rudder Pedals BF109F :thumbup:, Joystick - HOTAS Warthog, Throttle - HOTAS Warthog, TrackIR V5. Pimax 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarDa Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) How to Land the Dora The external view displays total speed in all directions and is ground speed. The indicated speed should only show a rough indication of _forward_ speed. So potential sources of differences between IAS and the external view speed indication are if you are flying at an angle (alpha+beta), wind (which affects the IAS-readout not GS) and incorrect pressure setting. 20 km/h is 5,55m/s which really isn't much all things considered I believe. Edit: So flying at 20 degree alpha at 250 km/h would give about 50km/h difference between ground speed and IAS. A wind of 3 m/s would give a possibly additional difference of around 10km/h... If you aren't flying at sea level there will be additional differences. Edited August 16, 2014 by RagnarDa provided an example 2 DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effte Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 The external view displays total speed in all directions and is ground speed. The indicated speed should only show a rough indication of _forward_ speed. So potential sources of differences between IAS and the external view speed indication are if you are flying at an angle (alpha+beta), wind (which affects the IAS-readout not GS) and incorrect pressure setting. 20 km/h is 5,55m/s which really isn't much all things considered I believe. Edit: So flying at 20 degree alpha at 250 km/h would give about 50km/h difference between ground speed and IAS. A wind of 3 m/s would give a possibly additional difference of around 10km/h... If you aren't flying at sea level there will be additional differences. Tjena Ragnar! Going to be a bit of a PITA with you. ;) While alpha and beta will affect your IAS reading, it is not as simple as taking the trig vectors. It's not the longitudinal component of airspeed, but rather more complex (and less predictable). IAS can, counter intuitively, increase in a slip. It comes down to the individual installation. Generally a lot of care is taken to have a reasonably correct IAS reading throughout the normal alpha/beta range. Perhaps slightly less so during rushed wartime development... but that's speculation on my part. I do think external view is GS though, meaning a steep climb or dive will reduce it to the horizontal component of the actual velocity. The main source of IAS vs TAS (and thus GS) discrepancies would be your density altitude, with each 1000 feet of density altitude adding roughly 2% to your IAS to produce TAS. That rule of thumb holds up surprisingly well. I'd also say that it is ground speed which is affected by wind, while IAS is not, while the pressure setting is only for the altimeter. Other than that, I agree. Sorry for shooting you down, you can have your cat yell at me over TS later to get back. ;) Cheers, /Fred ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarDa Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) How to Land the Dora Hiss! Edited August 16, 2014 by RagnarDa gif DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorT Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Ok guys Ive been trying to land the Dora for the past 5 days now and I think Ive only been successful twice. I really really trying to learn this aircraft and when shes in the air I love the handling characteristics. So I'm asking you guys for pointers and tips of what I'm doing wrong. My typical landing attempt is shown in my track below. I just cant seam to keep it on runway at all and end up as a creator in the ground. "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, your my only hope!" :helpsmilie: Thanks guys.landingAttemptxx.trk Don't ask me for advice on these Two Subjects: 1.. How to Take Off in the Dora! 2.. How to Land the Dora! UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClearDark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Ok guys Ive been trying to land the Dora for the past 5 days now and I think Ive only been successful twice. I really really trying to learn this aircraft and when shes in the air I love the handling characteristics. So I'm asking you guys for pointers and tips of what I'm doing wrong. My typical landing attempt is shown in my track below. I just cant seam to keep it on runway at all and end up as a creator in the ground. "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, your my only hope!" :helpsmilie: Thanks guys. Watch the track here, it shows a "standard" landing http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2149934&postcount=10 I found that the 2 most important things on landing the Dora (or any aircraft for that matter) is to have a very low vertical velocity (-2.5ms and above), and make sure you touch down wings completely level. A small dip to either side can be fatal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfstriked Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 How do you control the Dora when landed and trying to slow her down.I pull back on stick and dance the rudders but as speed declines its futile.Is brake steering a must in the Dora? That said I did my first take off and first landing just now and find her very tame with no issues at all until I tried to slow her down.The Mustang though I had a hard time with at first which is very counter to everyone else here.Could be attributed to the first thing I did was to remove takeoff assistance. "Its easy,place the pipper on target and bombs away." :pilotfly: i7-8700k/GTX 1080ti/VKB-GladiatorPRO/VKB-T-rudder Pedals/Saitek X55 throttle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfstriked Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Watch the track here, it shows a "standard" landing http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2149934&postcount=10 I found that the 2 most important things on landing the Dora (or any aircraft for that matter) is to have a very low vertical velocity (-2.5ms and above), and make sure you touch down wings completely level. A small dip to either side can be fatal Is her wide undercarriage modeled correctly?I would think that the 109 would feel the way the 190 feels right now.She seems to pivot over and rip wings rather easily as if the wide undercarriage is not fighting this urge. "Its easy,place the pipper on target and bombs away." :pilotfly: i7-8700k/GTX 1080ti/VKB-GladiatorPRO/VKB-T-rudder Pedals/Saitek X55 throttle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strix Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 This is my FIRST take of and landing ever in same flight!! I have tried 50 times to take of, and only got airborne twice, but never succeeded to land happily after. Not even perfect but, I did it!!! I did throttle up full and steered with rudder the whole way. Did not use brakes at all in take of! I never did apply full throttle before, only 2000-2500 rpm and as soon as a let go of stick, it started to drift to one side and then I tried to compensate with rudder, but I always over steered to much. I have tried to use brakes and and rudder, but result was always the same, as soon as I let go of stick, it drift to one side and then I cant correct it, it only gets worst. But this time, I did apply full throttle, and the plane was much easier to steer with rudder after I let go of stick. I did reach speed much quicker and when tail went up it started to take of much faster then before. And that did make it easier to take of. I did a steep descent and managed to do a nice landing, best ever for me! Tried about 100 times before.... I post my track so you can see.FirstTOandLN.trk Win 10 64. GTX1080 ti 11 Gb, Intel i-5, 16 Gb ram, SSD 1,5 Tb, 2 Terrabyte HD, Monitor ASUS XG32V 144Hz, Slaw Milans Rudder Pedals BF109F :thumbup:, Joystick - HOTAS Warthog, Throttle - HOTAS Warthog, TrackIR V5. Pimax 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted August 21, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 21, 2014 Looking back for the mistakes I made I can say that the key thing when you land Dora (and any taildragger) is how accurate you estimate the altitude. You must flare the plane at the constant altitude not more than 30-50 cm over the field at 220-210 kph. As you are flaring and bleeding airspeed pull the stick to your belly and the plane will touchdown with locked tailgear. If you perofrm ideal flaring with VSI = 0 at 2-3 m - the plane will fall down very hard. If you have not stop descending and the plane touches the ground with VSI <0 bouncing will occur. If you are lucky to land it with stick aft and locked tail wheel remember that rudder is not so effective without propwash so use short brakes shots to keep the plane straight and then apply both brakes simulateneously tapping when it is necessary to keep the line. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strix Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Why is Dora so different then P-51 to land or takeoff? If you look at gears placement, its very similar wheel width extended. So it would be handling same on runway. But Dora acts more that a BF109 with narrow landing gears. Both have tail wheel, Dora is locked but not P-51? So why is it so hard to keep Dora straight on runway at takeoff, but not P-51? And why do Dora bounce a lot when landing, but not P-51? Its like they don't have any shock absorber on Dora that deals with the bouncing. P-51 landing gear deals with bouncing much better then Dora. Even if you let P-51 drop down on track, it don't get so much airborne again as Dora. When getting up to speed with Dora, you might think its tail should at least keeping it straight, but it moves all over the runway, like you have lost the tail. it really is a strange plane to takeoff and land.... Edited August 22, 2014 by Strix Win 10 64. GTX1080 ti 11 Gb, Intel i-5, 16 Gb ram, SSD 1,5 Tb, 2 Terrabyte HD, Monitor ASUS XG32V 144Hz, Slaw Milans Rudder Pedals BF109F :thumbup:, Joystick - HOTAS Warthog, Throttle - HOTAS Warthog, TrackIR V5. Pimax 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrohde Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Looking back for the mistakes I made I can say that the key thing when you land Dora (and any taildragger) is how accurate you estimate the altitude. You must flare the plane at the constant altitude not more than 30-50 cm over the field at 220-210 kph. As you are flaring and bleeding airspeed pull the stick to your belly and the plane will touchdown with locked tailgear. If you perofrm ideal flaring with VSI = 0 at 2-3 m - the plane will fall down very hard. If you have not stop descending and the plane touches the ground with VSI <0 bouncing will occur. If you are lucky to land it with stick aft and locked tail wheel remember that rudder is not so effective without propwash so use short brakes shots to keep the plane straight and then apply both brakes simulateneously tapping when it is necessary to keep the line. That's a very good summary; thanks Yo-Yo. PC: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X | MSI Suprim GeForce 3090 TI | ASUS Prime X570-P | 128GB DDR4 3600 RAM | 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit Gear: HP Reverb G2 | JetPad FSE | VKB Gunfighter Pro Mk.III w/ MCG Ultimate VKBcontrollers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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