Saitek Evo Force, or - FFB trimming - a stunning feature, but...

I tried to program a quick tap of the x key in the logitech software last night. But, I can't seem to be able to figure out how to program the keystroke to happen after the trimmer button is released. I wish there was more documentation on how to program this thing.

@shez

made also a small dirty macro for the trim and rudder fix. xml knowledge = zero, but there must be a way to define a "waiting" for the release of the trim button and after that a automatic short pressing of the rudder-keys.

this is the table in my xml-file:

</Command><Command Id="39" Name="Trim + Rudder fix"><Event Type="Key" Keyname="T" Up="false" /><Event Type="Pause" Time="63" /><Event Type="Key" Keyname="T" Up="true" /><Event Type="Pause" Time="63" /><Event Type="Key" Keyname="Z" Up="false" /><Event Type="Pause" Time="63" /><Event Type="Key" Keyname="X" Up="false" /><Event Type="Pause" Time="63" /><Event Type="Key" Keyname="Z" Up="true" /><Event Type="Pause" Time="63" /><Event Type="Key" Keyname="X" Up="true" />

@morg

about sensitivity, check my attachment in this post: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=761302&postcount=17

there is a lack of precision in the ffb-lock, but with these sensitivity setting, the black shark is much more controllable now.

I just spent a fair bit of time researching how to assign a command to a button release event. So far, no luck. There simply does not seem to be a way to do this. This is a bit of a disappointment and serious limitation considering the apparent sophistication of this controller. Of course I could be missing something, but if I am, it's buried pretty deep.

...of course, it's also a disappointment that BS doesn't provide the ability to disable rudder trim when running with FFB, which would make this moot (for now), but that's another story.

Well that doesn't sound promissing. Where's that Logitech G940 guy when you need him. And yes that is a serious limitation.

after some hours flying with the macro, somehow it works, i got used to it.

i started a complete new thread about the g940, some kind of a compact summary.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=45695

from my side, the case of the saitek evo force is closed. :smilewink:

but FFB will get an overhaul by ED, i hope.

I tried this macro (and appreciate the effort!). It almost works. Unfortunately, it also has a fairly serious issue. What happens is that it first activates trim (T), then triggers the left (Z) and right (Y) rudder keys. The theory is that the rudder keys will undo the rudder trim. In fact, this is exactly what happens, but in practice there are side effects.

If at the moment you trim you happen to be holding the rudder pedals perfectly still (common), this will end up neutralizing/centering the rudder and you will be yanked off course. Now on the positive side, if you move the rudders pedals even slightly during or after the trim, then the rudder position will return to it's original and expected position. This is good, but you've already been disrupted by that time. It it is also very hard to tell exactly what is going on unless you have the control window open. Now I should point out that the macro works almost perfectly if you are actually moving the pedals while trimming; but often that's not the best time to trim.

My theory why these side-effects occur is that when you hit the ZX combo, the software is switching to a keyboard "mode" for rudder control and starting out by neutralizing the rudder position. As soon as you touch the pedals, however, it switches back to using the pedal axis. If you happen to trim while moving the pedals, the switch occurs so fast that you hardly notice it. Anyway, during flight/navigation, this macro works well enough that one could kind-of get used to it, but in hover, landing, or targeting scenarios where you're trying to keep the bird fixed tight, I can't consider it a solution.

I now believe this problem would still exist even if the G940 were able to attach the ZX trigger to the button up event, so this is really a DCS:BS issue. Anyway, at this point I'm close to considering turning off FFB altogether in BS since at this point I could definitely trim better with the old X36 I just retired. Here's hoping that a patch (or even better, a hot fix) will be issued for this since I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed G940 users.

@ddahlstrom

yeah, you're right. it's just a dirty workaround.

for standart flight it's working so far.

what i'm doing at the moment, when i need high precision in steering (landing on FARP/Ship etc.), i simply switch to FD-mode with less trimming.

i use 2 basic tactics for groundattack in the moment.

the classic sniper tactic (since the good old days with janes'longbow) for ranges more than 2000 meters - enter combat zone - find cover - stabilize - hover mode - no more trimming from this point, use TURN 2 TARGET - rise - find targets using shkval - aim - shoot with vihkr missiles - descend - do it again or move to another cover until the most dangerous threats are eliminated.

the close combat tactic - for most of the harmless soft targets -> FD-mode <- keep moving or strafing - heavily using the pedals / less trimming / ffb trim is becoming very handy here - shkval or gunsight - use gun or rockets.

the single mission "Attack on Tkvarcheli" puts this to a test.

since i found this setup for the g940 with the logi-profiler -> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=45695 - i'm able to hit a truck at 1000 - 1500 meters in fd-mode with the fixed cannon in gunsight-mode while moving. that's pretty much fun actually :)

Well I've gone ahead and turned off the FFB on my G940 for DCS:BS. At this time, at least with this HOTAS, FFB is not ready for prime-time IMHO. The rudder issue is a significant problem. Another is that FFB trim lock on the stick almost always introduces some kind of unexpected motion in the chopper, sometimes slight sometimes and sometimes worse, but not really predictable. By turning off FFB and going back to trimming by centering the controls, I have returned to having much more surgical control. I'm a little disappointed that FFB didn't work out, but not terribly. It's a new stick, and time is probably needed to work out the kinks. Hopefully, we'll eventually see a patch.

Also as a side note, I was also having some trouble precisely controlling my rudder positions. I found that the rocker control on my old X36 was more precise as I could stop rotation on a dime with it. The G940 rudder pedals, have very slight stiction to them, causing motion to be ever-so-slightly jerky. This isn't an issue in general flight, but is when turning precisely in, say, hover. I don't think this is unit-specific a defect, but it does reduce fine control somewhat. To solve this, I've bumped the curve on the rudder in the BS control panel way up to 50% (and even more may still be needed). If anyone is having this issue, you may want to give this a try.

I really hope some Logitech people are catching a plane to Russia about this. I heard they got at least a profile out now with the new release, thats good of them. Now lets get tuned or something. Less talk, more action! I want to rid myself of the x52, sooner the better.

@ ddahlstrom

did you test the sensivity settings in the logi-profiler? a applied a sensivity of 0% to every axis, also for rudder and throttle. precision and handling improved a lot. what i learned from the days with my "old" saitek evo force, leave all the axis tune panel settings in bs-options to default.

in ff tune i use trimmer force = 50 at the moment (windows settings - gamecontroller - forces settings default at 100%), so the force doesn't kick in too strong when trimming, but has enough power to hold the trim position.

i will never turn off ffb anymore. :smilewink:

I'm a little disappointed that (G940) FFB didn't work out, but not terribly. It's a new stick, and time is probably needed to work out the kinks. Hopefully, we'll eventually see a patch.

Yes, I did try turning the force down. It's not the physical kick that's a problem, but rather the "virtual" kick, which seems to happen independent of the force settings. To some extent, this may actually be due more the goofy way the rudder trim works in FFB mode (note that the ZX fix addresses this to some degree, but I've since turned it off since it has it's own side effects).

As for rudder sensitivity, I did have it on 0%. This by itself, however, does not provide adequate fine control. By changing the curve to 50% I now get very fine control around the center (vital for targeting) and coarse control at the greater extremes (great for spinning around). If it hadn't been for the very fine control I had on my X36 rocker, I probably wouldn't have known the difference. If I want to point 2mm to the right on screen, I should be able to tap the pedal, move the distance and stop without overshooting. I'm much closer to that now.

Anyway, as far as FFB goes, I should add that everyone with a G940 needs to read your thread and try it with FFB on and make a judgement. It really is a cool effect that I like, and really tried to get used to (and to some extent did). In the end, however, it was sort of like my old eDimensional glasses. They were gee-whiz cool, and something I had to show everyone in my family, and try every game with. However, when it actually came to playing the game, they simply made most more difficult due to bugs and quirks. I'm not beyond believing there may still be some settings I haven't tried that work significantly better, but so far I haven't found them. On my previous stick, I discovered the benefits of frequent, precise trimming; but the FFB mode for DCS:BS is just too rough around the edges to give me the same precision. So off it goes...until another day.

BTW, I will continue to follow your "guide" thread. It has a lot of good insight. Thanks for the effort. If you or others have any other ideas, I'll be happy to try them out.

...but the FFB mode for DCS:BS is just too rough around the edges...

says it all, i absolutely agree with that.

I really hope some Logitech people are catching a plane to Russia about this. I heard they got at least a profile out now with the new release, thats good of them. Now lets get tuned or something. Less talk, more action! I want to rid myself of the x52, sooner the better.

Unfortunately the new profile just assigns a few basic buttons and that's it.