kaoqumba Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 The reason for all this controversy is not that ED has not given a specific timetable and plan, but that they have too high expectations for EA products and not enough psychological preparation for the time needed to end the EA phase. In fact, many people want to experience as quickly as possible, so they support "EA products", but at the same time, they want the modules to be completed as quickly as possible in a few months. In fact, the development of Rhubarb Peak has never slowed down or even stagnated. Everyone of them works very hard. But it will take at least a few years to accomplish all this, even if it progresses rapidly. This is not exactly what many people expected. The waiting time is far beyond the limit of their endurance. On the other hand, F14 and future JF-17 will have higher completeness and playability than F/A18C. By contrast, long-term accumulated depression and anxiety are bound to erupt. To be honest, ED is very sincere. They comfort us by explaining more than once, releasing news regularly and even revealing plans for the future, but they still can't satisfy everyone. In fact, even given a plan or even a rough schedule. If you find that you have to wait a long time, there will still be people who are dissatisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron886 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 So while the more complicated systems which are taking longer and bug fixes are being implemented you think all other work should just stop? This is not how it works, team members can not just be sat around waiting for other work to be completed, work must continue. Since you asked, I think there's enough basic PVI and system issues that deserve work to keep the whole team busy, if the rate of work is any indication. I don't think things like grid entry are in work on a back-burner status, I think they were never started when they should have been, and were instead bypassed in the interest of a more complete appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0op8ack Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Since you asked, I think there's enough basic PVI and system issues that deserve work to keep the whole team busy, if the rate of work is any indication. I don't think things like grid entry are in work on a back-burner status, I think they were never started when they should have been, and were instead bypassed in the interest of a more complete appearance. To be honest, the most important job for a team manager is keep the team relax not busy. Pressure is the most dangerous tool, you have to use it very carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron886 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I'm sure you're right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 The reason for all this controversy is not that ED has not given a specific timetable and plan, but that they have too high expectations for EA products and not enough psychological preparation for the time needed to end the EA phase. In fact, many people want to experience as quickly as possible, so they support "EA products", but at the same time, they want the modules to be completed as quickly as possible in a few months. In fact, the development of Rhubarb Peak has never slowed down or even stagnated. Everyone of them works very hard. But it will take at least a few years to accomplish all this, even if it progresses rapidly. This is not exactly what many people expected. The waiting time is far beyond the limit of their endurance. On the other hand, F14 and future JF-17 will have higher completeness and playability than F/A18C. By contrast, long-term accumulated depression and anxiety are bound to erupt. To be honest, ED is very sincere. They comfort us by explaining more than once, releasing news regularly and even revealing plans for the future, but they still can't satisfy everyone. In fact, even given a plan or even a rough schedule. If you find that you have to wait a long time, there will still be people who are dissatisfied. I look at it this way. As long as there are regular non-fluff updates, I'm happy. ED has been doing fine IMO, maybe not updating the stuff I want any given week, but the fact that at least 1-2x a month the hornet sees some improvement is proof enough they are working on it. And if its not my pet issue, well doom on me, its probably some other dudes issue. That being said ED is doing vastly better than most of the 3rd party modules, where nothing gets updated for months, or maybe a brief bug fix here and there. And the vast majority of 3rd part modules are EA, or should be considered EA. That being said, the hornet is very far from "complete" IMO. Yes I can fly it online, but literally none of its functionality, be it AA or AG is anywhere near done IMO. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillMag Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 OK, understood, this is so encouraging not to buy EA. Funny thing about this chap's post, is that he complains about EA not being complete, but also quite likely sits in the "I am tired of waiting 5 years for a module to be released" camp. I guess ED is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I had a similar debate (which very quickly escalated into a sad name-calling session) with a Youtube content creator crying over how he was tired of incomplete new modules (read F16) being released and then breaking "all other modules in DCS". Needless to say, one of the names I was being called was Fanboy. And honestly, I wear that badge with pride. I'm grown up enough to understand what EA is. ED has broken no promises, and missed no deadlines. They have kept the community in the loop constantly, and release updates with a sufficient regularity. These kids that cry over unfinished modules are disappointed by expectations they have created for themselves, and then lash out at ED for those expectations not being met. My advice: grow up alongside these EA modules, enjoy a combat simulator that literally mops the floor with anything else on the market as a whole, sometimes just marvel in the beauty of this Sim, and above all, HAVE FUN. i5-6480 | 1070Ti 8GB | 16GB DDR3 | TM T16000 FCS | F/A-18C | F-14B | A-10C | F-86F | P-51D | Spitfire | FW 190 D9 | BF 109 K4 | Mig15 | AV8B NA | Mirage 2000 | L39 | Yak52 | UH1 Huey | Mi8 | C101 | FC3 | F16 | P47 | Mi24 "I just don't like entitled little kids" :music_whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimitrischal Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I had a similar debate (which very quickly escalated into a sad name-calling session) with a Youtube content creator crying over how he was tired of incomplete new modules (read F16) being released and then breaking "all other modules in DCS". Needless to say, one of the names I was being called was Fanboy. And honestly, I wear that badge with pride. New releases breaking things isn’t uncommon nor is it normal. A diverse platform like dcs should provide a solid framework to base existing and future products on without them affecting each other every time something new comes along. This framework is nonexistent and core aspects of the platform are being constantly worked on an “ED needs to add this to x module” basis so everyone has to deal with the consequences. If I was working on a dcs module I expect my coding of basic instruments and functions to remain working and not have to go back to rework on stuff every x amount of time because ED tinkered with something. After some time when some older modules become less profitable and developers put other things in their agendas this will become a major issue as an end of life product can’t warrant major reworking anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Burns Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Funny thing about this chap's post, is that he complains about EA not being complete, but also quite likely sits in the "I am tired of waiting 5 years for a module to be released" camp. I guess ED is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I had a similar debate (which very quickly escalated into a sad name-calling session) with a Youtube content creator crying over how he was tired of incomplete new modules (read F16) being released and then breaking "all other modules in DCS". Needless to say, one of the names I was being called was Fanboy. And honestly, I wear that badge with pride. I'm grown up enough to understand what EA is. ED has broken no promises, and missed no deadlines. They have kept the community in the loop constantly, and release updates with a sufficient regularity. These kids that cry over unfinished modules are disappointed by expectations they have created for themselves, and then lash out at ED for those expectations not being met. My advice: grow up alongside these EA modules, enjoy a combat simulator that literally mops the floor with anything else on the market as a whole, sometimes just marvel in the beauty of this Sim, and above all, HAVE FUN. Thats where I went mate, the forums complain things take too long so they release EA, then they complain that EA isnt complete or now completed fast enough. I get sick of listening to it and i would imagine ED and Third Parties to do too. I was thinking about this the other day, it must be more difficult to code a virtual targeting pod that the actual thing, because at least with the real pod it doesnt have to simulate a virtual building, bridge, tank etc, these pods are simulating a pod reacting to a simulated world. Bonkers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimmergloom667 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 This framework is nonexistent and core aspects of the platform are being constantly worked on an “ED needs to add this to x module” basis so everyone has to deal with the consequences. If I was working on a dcs module I expect my coding of basic instruments and functions to remain working and not have to go back to rework on stuff every x amount of time because ED tinkered with something.. This is why things now take a long time (with the F-18 most noticeably): they know that, and they started to rework a lot of things from the ground up to lay the groundwork for such framework. This is why it sometimes takes longer than expected in the F-18. This is why a lot of stuff flows much better with the F-16. i7 - 9700K | 32 GB DDR4 3200 | RTX 2080 | VKB Gunfighter Mk II /w MCG Pro | Virpil T-50CM2 Throttle | TrackIR 5 | VKB Mk. IV AJS-37 | A/V-8B | A-10C | F-14A/B | F-16C | F-18C | F-86F | FC3 | JF-17 | Ka-50 | L-39 | Mi-8 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19 | MiG-21bis | M2000-C | P-51D | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | UH-1H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanab Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I will ask if we can share more detail about the team, but I can not promise anything. Hi bignewy, have you got news about hornet team ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=4c=Nikola Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I do not agree on that side, i think 79 dollars are a very low price for what you get even at this point, at least on NA, Europe region countries where salaries are high enough. I would not mind at all if modules like the hornet or viper costs 100 dollars cause they deserve it. Heck, it costs the same as a call of duty game which is ridiculous. Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk Business 101: Increasing product price doesn't necessarily increase sales revenue. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon_120 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Business 101: Increasing product price doesn't necessarily increase sales revenue. Did i say that? I was arguing against 79 dollars being a costly price. And by the way, it wont increase sales for sure but i would bet going from 79 to 100 wont hurt them too much either given the typical simmer profile and average expenditures on gaming gear for this hobby. But I will assume they have made some optimization curves scenarios to determine best selling price point. Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted September 16, 2019 ED Team Share Posted September 16, 2019 Hi bignewy, have you got news about hornet team ? No sorry, I said I would ask, I did not promise. Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanab Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) No sorry, I said I would ask, I did not promise. :thumbup:understood. Hope a positive answer, it would be good to stop the fears of some players Edited September 16, 2019 by hanab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Did i say that? I was arguing against 79 dollars being a costly price. And by the way, it wont increase sales for sure but i would bet going from 79 to 100 wont hurt them too much either given the typical simmer profile and average expenditures on gaming gear for this hobby. 79$ for an unfinished module and a lot of promises is already pricey and way out of the sweet point. Sell it at 40$ and they will get 10x more orders, do the math, it works out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted September 16, 2019 ED Team Share Posted September 16, 2019 79$ for an unfinished module and a lot of promises is already pricey and way out of the sweet point. Sell it at 40$ and they will get 10x more orders, do the math, it works out... I bet you that we would see the same complaints for a 40$ price tag. This is how we offered the Hornet, as an Early Access project, it was known that it would be incomplete, and take time to finish, the only other option is we don't offer access and nobody has the Hornet right now. Most people prefer this method, it just requires patience. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 79$ for an unfinished module and a lot of promises is already pricey and way out of the sweet point. Sell it at 40$ and they will get 10x more orders, do the math, it works out... ED better get you on staff straight away. I'm sure they never would have considered that :music_whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I still get so confused by the lack of understanding of EARLY ACCESS. I have only been into DCS for about a year, and I completely understand/understood that when I purchased the F-18 I was basically buying into the beta program with it. Same with the AV-8B I am fixing to buy. It says all of this when you buy the module. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Did i say that? I was arguing against 79 dollars being a costly price. And by the way, it wont increase sales for sure but i would bet going from 79 to 100 wont hurt them too much either given the typical simmer profile and average expenditures on gaming gear for this hobby. But I will assume they have made some optimization curves scenarios to determine best selling price point. Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk I'm sure they have and thats why it doesn't sell for 100 bucks. Probably some psychology of seeing that extra zero. I'd say mainly what it does is drive away the more casual gamers or new and younger players. Plenty of younger guys here use X52's or other cheap sticks, no pedals, and maybe track-ir. Now you are exactly right about the old guard flight simmers, relative to the cost of a sim-pit, VR, fancy sticks, its not much, but unless you want no market in a few short years, you need to cater to both sides of the market. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 I still get so confused by the lack of understanding of EARLY ACCESS. I have only been into DCS for about a year, and I completely understand/understood that when I purchased the F-18 I was basically buying into the beta program with it. Same with the AV-8B I am fixing to buy. It says all of this when you buy the module. Same boat here. Though really most other developers have a bit different idea of what EA is and timelines on other games. So someone coming from that background actually thinks 1 year is a damn long time for EA. Much less 3+ years that some products here have taken. Its apples to oranges, but I think if they include a note in the description of how long they expect EA to take it might help with the problem, but alot of new folks are gonna balk at 3 years till they get their functional plane. On the plus side I'm reasonably confident I'm gonna get an F18 at the end of the day/year whatever. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon_120 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 79$ for an unfinished module and a lot of promises is already pricey and way out of the sweet point. Sell it at 40$ and they will get 10x more orders, do the math, it works out...Let me ask you something? What other titles or genres do you usually play? How many hours of entertainment are you able to get out of those? At which price are they sold? I really think you need to factor in those aspects before calling something pricey. Specially when after 3/4 or more years of use you will still request bug fixing and support from the developer like you see from lots of people around here (e.g. A10C, KA50...). Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Same boat here. Though really most other developers have a bit different idea of what EA is and timelines on other games. So someone coming from that background actually thinks 1 year is a damn long time for EA. Much less 3+ years that some products here have taken. Its apples to oranges, but I think if they include a note in the description of how long they expect EA to take it might help with the problem, but alot of new folks are gonna balk at 3 years till they get their functional plane. On the plus side I'm reasonably confident I'm gonna get an F18 at the end of the day/year whatever. No, totally get that. I come for a more console based gaming structure, with a different idea of EA/Beta. I just few it that way personally so it makes sense for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) Let me ask you something? What other titles or genres do you usually play? How many hours of entertainment are you able to get out of those? At which price are they sold? I really think you need to factor in those aspects before calling something pricey. Specially when after 3/4 or more years of use you will still request bug fixing and support from the developer like you see from lots of people around here (e.g. A10C, KA50...). Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk Yeah but price per hour played doesn't really factor in for new people. All they see is a triple digit price tag, and learning curve that looks like the Burj Khalipha and they balk, and say nah. I'll be honest, I think the money I paid for the hornet has paid off in spades I'm not sure how many hours, but its probably over 300 so pennies per hour. But I also have some modules where the cost per flight hour is literally 50bucks because I haven't spent more than a single hour in them. If I average it out and take a look how much I've spent on just the sofware end of DCS and total hours its probably still in the pennies per hour, if I add in the hardware it goes up in to the dollars or tens of dollars per hour range for sure but its not really how many people really look at it anyway, maybe accountants. A new player sees a price tag thats equal or more than a AAA rated game that needs a mouse/kbd that they already have to play it. Then for DCS they will also have to buy a few hundred dollars of new hardware to really enjoy (and I'm only talking about a basic hotas, and basic trackir, not a simpit and VR). Thats a pretty hard sell for many "new" players. And honestly thats what DCS needs to keep going, I keep reading on the VR side of the forum about how bad person XYZ's eyes are or what sort of old man disease they have and think geeze this is a hobby thats aging out, and thats not a good thing. Edited September 16, 2019 by Harlikwin New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 No, totally get that. I come for a more console based gaming structure, with a different idea of EA/Beta. I just few it that way personally so it makes sense for me. Thats just my point on different players and expectations. I've been doing sims for decades and I can wait (as long as there is progress damnit). But I can relate to younger players thinking geeze, will I graduate HS/college before this module is done? Honestly my point on EA is that for some folks the idea of 3-4EA process isn't something that even occurs to them. 3-4-6 months, ok, but 4 years? Add in to that fact that while ED generally does a good job with updates, many of the 3rd party dev's really don't. That was a huge part of the issue with the harrier when I bought it. Literally no progress for like 6 months while the worked on the Mig19, and that pissed alot of people off. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted September 17, 2019 ED Team Share Posted September 17, 2019 Hi all, Please remember this is early access, and it is a long process. New features are being worked on and will continue to be worked on until they are complete. We will bring you more news as and when those features are near completion Thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts