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Old 04-13-2019, 12:01 PM   #31
probad
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How do you correct for PIO in F-14? It feels like my input comes 5 seconds later even with 0 curves. It stays in the same spot and then it starts moving again.
this is something that depends on practice and experience. you need to "stay ahead of the airplane" and what that means is you need to have a good idea of how and when your airplane will respond to your input ahead of time.
ex., if you want to push forward, you blip the throttle ahead, and then immediately pull back --don't wait to see how much you accelerate, because by the time you see the acceleration kick in, your reactionary input will be far too late.
you need to think of entire sets of "input sequences" and not simply single inputs.

as for countering pio after it has developed: the simple way is to just let go. after you start the pio chances are you're going continue to keep making the same timing mistakes that initiated the pio, so all you will do is amplify the oscillation even more. letting go at least prevents further compounding of the pio, and the oscillation will eventually lose energy.
active pio cancellation is simply an extension of staying ahead of the aircraft. when you understand the aircraft's response characteristics, you can appropriately time the correct countering commands to disrupt and damp out the oscillation.

watching your clip, i think you're definitely coming in too high. the wake is not helping you settle your aircraft in a steady state in preparation for contact. part of the problem it looks like is your head position; since you're not using trackir you can't easily look upwards so you are settling for a straight in sort of approach to keep sight of the tanker. maybe try making a snapview that has your head position moved forward a few inches so you can get a better vertical field of view out of the windscreen so you can come in at the tanker from a lower altitude.
you should be lower than the basket when you come in, because throttling up will naturally cause you to balloon upwards, allowing you to float right into the basket.

lastly, you're not actually setting the wings in bomb mode. the aircraft's center of lift changes as the wings swing and that definitely does not help you.
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Last edited by probad; 04-13-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:06 PM   #32
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I can connect the TrackIr to my Macbook no problem, the thing is, when I move my head forward I have no frame of reference, and I use the Nav ruler for that purpose on approach. Once that is gone, I'm just totally lost.


Also, Tomcat always wants to go up. It's like the vortex of the wash is a magnet. Even if I add a little throttle it starts rising really quickly. It's hard to anticipate because you have to get the moment JUST RIGHT, add stick too soon and you will drop down and out of the refuelling position.


Once I'm in the wash I am stuck there. Usually though, I never get there in the first place, since I approach from a lower postion. But, as you said, Tomcat baloons upwards.


I knew I forgot something. Dammit. I should've set the bomb mode. I was too preoccupied with making the video. After about 40 attempts I need a break.


As for PIO - in the helicopter I can easily anticipate the movement. I "feel" it. Here, it's totally different because the movement is not continuous. It sort of stops for a second, then starts swaying again giving you the false idea that everything is well trimmed and fine.


I feel so incompetent. I saw a guy fire a Maverick whilst refueling inverted in an F/A-18 on Hoggit!

Last edited by Cunning_Fox; 04-13-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:44 PM   #33
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I can connect the TrackIr to my Macbook no problem, the thing is, when I move my head forward I have no frame of reference, and I use the Nav ruler for that purpose on approach.
i dont quite understand this, can you explain?
the tanker is your frame of reference, it should always be in view even when you are approaching from below


if you are familiar with helicopters then just think of throttle as collective, when you increase it, you go up. so what do you have to do? compensate at the same time with a bit of down pitch. you should not need much force, more like a gentle "suggestion" of pitch down.

it is common when stressed to wield the stick with a death grip, but it only makes things worse because your muscle movements will be rough. release the stick and relax -- you trimmed correctly right? then letting go of the stick shouldnt be a big deal.
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Last edited by probad; 04-13-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:54 PM   #34
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When your head is moving freely you have no frame of reference on approach. I use the top of the HUD for the reference as I get closer to the tanker. TrackIR makes it harder because your point of view is always changing.
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Old 04-13-2019, 04:54 PM   #35
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As above - 40 degrees minimum wing sweep is compulsory for refueling the Tomcat - so much easier! A couple of times I have been struggling to plug in and was like wtf - then checked the wings and for some reason they had swept fully fwd, re-swept them back and straight in.

Just sit off the tankers wing, sweep yours to 40+ and trim up the aircraft at the tankers speed, then move in.

The tanker speed makes a big difference too - a lot twitchier to refuel if you are too fast - try around 250-300 knots.

Personally I have found the F-14 the easiest a/c to tank with in DCS - generally just pop it in first or second go. Staying plugged when the tanker chucks it into a turn is another story lol. Saying that, I don't really like the Viking compared to the KCV-130/135 as much, and it carries bugger all fuel as well.

Even the old rule of 'don't watch the basket' doesn't really apply as the F-14 is so docile if you are gentle, you can generally just move fwd and guide the probe straight into the basket.

Just FYI but IIRC, the max speed for the S3 when refueling is less than 250 knots. I will ask again but one of the guys I fly with and have known for 20 years was an S3 guy. It came from him. I get it, second hand info but...
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:48 PM   #36
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Just FYI but IIRC, the max speed for the S3 when refueling is less than 250 knots. I will ask again but one of the guys I fly with and have known for 20 years was an S3 guy. It came from him. I get it, second hand info but...


I knew there was a reason I’ve set it to about 250 knots.


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Old 04-14-2019, 04:05 AM   #37
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ias though right? remember mission editor is groundspeed
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:26 AM   #38
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ias though right? remember mission editor is groundspeed
If you’re talking to me, yes. Ground speed doesn’t matter. IAS
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:36 AM   #39
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It does matter in the Mission Editor, as that is GS. Set the tanker to 250 knots in the ME and you are gonna be in trouble. Generally 336 in the ME = 250 IAS @ 15,000'.

225-ish KIAS for the S3 is fine, but a little on the slow side, while tanking at 200KIAS is a PITA. Generally with the KC-130 250 IAS is the sweet sopt.
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Old 04-14-2019, 08:14 AM   #40
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Wait, so first you say 250 is too slow, but now it’s the “sweet spot”?


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