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Change Wording: "Set SPI Generator" instead of "Make SPI"


Yurgon

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But make SOI SPI would be wrong, as the SOI itself is not the SPI. The SOI (TGP, TAD, ...) is just providing the SPI (a 3D position).

 

What LJQCN101 said is, that you could say "Make a 3D position (a target/object/coordinate/point) SPI", which would be correct.

 

But that is not what TMS fwd long does.

That is why "Make SPI" isn't very helpful.

The selected sensor does designate the 3D-Position and it continues to do so when it changes its LOS, or in case of the Steerpoint switches to another WP/MP. This does not require to "Make SPI" again.

Basically TMS fwd long selects the sensor which now designates the coordinates of the SPI, until another SPI designator is selected. Page 400/401 of the DCS manual lists all possible SPI designators... and yes, SPI designators is the term used in the manual written by ED.

Shagrat

 

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Do you know the definition of the word generate????? It is create/make/produce!!!

 

Well an A/C generator does not become an A/C creator.

 

A portable generator is not the same as a portable maker.

 

A diesel generator is not the same as a diesel producer.

 

But figuring out the meaning of words is a step in the right direction that you're taking. If only you understood them.

 

I'm glad you finally understand what I was saying!!!

 

I honestly don't know whether I'm amused or terrified that you still think I wasn't aware of that at any point during our discussion.

 

If you could point out what exactly got you confused, I might try to use better wording in the future. But so far, it seems you create your own version of reality and then confront others with it. Are you a politician? ;)

 

I'll accept it as set spi, generate SPI, make SPI

 

I take it your understanding is:

 

1. When TMS Forward Long gets pressed, the SPI is updated to a new coordinate, generated from the sensor that is SOI at that moment.

 

2. That same SOI may further update the SPI under certain circumstances.

 

It's okay to think of it like that, and it may well be how the system works internally. At the same time, it's more complicated than it needs to be.

 

1. When TMS Forward Long gets pressed, the SOI becomes SPI Generator.

 

2. From that point on, this sensor generates the SPI.

 

I won't respond to the rest of your condescending remarks, because the US Airforce manual is very clear on what is a SPI therefore I don't need you to continue to explain how your definition supersedes the US Airforce documentation on the subject.

 

This may come as a shocking surprise, but I'm talking about DCS, and have been from the very beginning. Do you understand that? This is a discussion about the DCS A-10C and its manual. I do not claim to have any insight into US Air Force training or operations for the A-10C, and while I would love to hear from them about this topic, the only person that keeps talking about the USAF is you.

 

shagrat explained to you several times: The controller layout in the manual comes far before the explanations of SPI and SOI. We don't have a trainer or instructor in DCS that hammers the proper concept into our minds until we could lay it out when woken up in the middle of the night.

 

"Make SPI" is very easy to misunderstand, and is positioned badly and without context.

 

At that spot, "Set SPI Generator" or "Set SOI as SPI Generator" or "Set SPI Designator" or "Set SOI as SPI Designator" would confuse exactly one person on this planet: You. I believe most other virtual pilots would gain an instinctive understanding that the SPI is not a fixed point that only ever gets updated when TMS Forward Long gets pressed again, but that it is indeed updated/generated from the SPI Generator.

 

I think the proper usage is "make something SPI", while "something" being an object/target /coordinate/point. i.e. make hooked object SPI, make last markpoint SPI or make HDC SPI. (These three are from the DoD manual).

 

So for me I'm good with make TGP track-point SPI, make MAV target SPI, make TDC SPI, etc.

 

I think that's okay-ish.

 

However, the aircraft and its sensors don't really identify objects or targets. The SPI really is just a point in space (no, Dagger, I did not change my mind about it. I would have given this same explanation without ever reading any of your posts. Just so we're clear.). In case of tracking an object with sufficient contrast in the TGP, the SPI itself still is not the object, it's just a point that is (hopefully) co-located with the object. As soon as the contrast or masking makes tracking the object impossible, SPI and object might not be co-located any longer. So thinking of it as "make TGP track-point SPI" is not really what happens, and thinking about it this way could easily lead to unexpected results.

 

"Make SOI SPI" would work also. Just "Make SPI" without the "something" is misleading...

 

Same as above. The sensor does not become the point. The sensor becomes the generator, or the generator source, of the point. So "Make SOI SPI" is, again, okay-ish and better than "Make SPI", but I don't think it's actually a good description of what happens.


Edited by Yurgon
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So "Make SOI SPI" is, again, okay-ish and better than "Make SPI", but I don't think it's actually a good description of what happens.

I advised "Make selected sensor SPI designator" as a compromise internally, to have consistency between the TMS overview and the List of SPI designators in the chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)" in pages 400 and 401. Will take a while to be discussed. I promote an additional reference to the SPI-Chapter for details, as well. Let's see what the bigwigs think ;)

Shagrat

 

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Well an A/C generator does not become an A/C creator.

 

A portable generator is not the same as a portable maker.

A diesel generator is not the same as a diesel producer.

 

 

Are you reeally this stubborn that you will even argue the meaning of English

words.

 

 

Are you serious now??

Please tell me the english definition of generate.

 

YES an AC electrical generator , is a producer of AC electricity!

A portable electrical generator is a portable electricity producer!!

A diesel powered generator produces/creates/makes electricity!!

They all PRODUCE electricity!! That is BY the very definition of the word generator!!!

 

So this is where we are, some guys who speak english as second language schooling the rest of us on the english language. This misunderstanding of the english language is at the very essence of this entire discussion. It is plain to see!

 

 

I'm bowing out of this ridiculous argument!


Edited by Dagger71
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I think the proper usage is "make something SPI", while "something" being an object/target /coordinate/point. i.e. make hooked object SPI, make last markpoint SPI or make HDC SPI. (These three are from the DoD manual).

 

So for me I'm good with make TGP track-point SPI, make MAV target SPI, make TDC SPI, etc.

But I personally won't call it make TGP SPI, make MAV SPI or make HUD SPI to avoid confusion.

 

PS: I also think you can use 'slew/update SPI' from the F16 MLU manual.

 

 

It's a losing argument as you can see. You can be Fairchild Republic engineer who designed the entire avionics package and they will still say you are wrong. They even admitted they don't give a Sh@t about what the official manual says!!


Edited by Dagger71
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I advised "Make selected sensor SPI designator" as a compromise internally, to have consistency between the TMS overview and the List of SPI designators in the chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)" in pages 400 and 401. Will take a while to be discussed. I promote an additional reference to the SPI-Chapter for details, as well. Let's see what the bigwigs think ;)

 

First of all, big thanks! :thumbup:

 

Reminds me of a quote from the show "Monk" (going from memory here):

 

Captain: "Monk, are you sure? I mean, are you really sure? And don't give me any of that 98% crap!"

Monk: "Captain, I am 100% certain that she probably killed him."

Captain: "What does that mean?"

Monk: "98%..."

 

I think that covers like 98% of my request and is vastly superior over the current "Make SPI". Sounds like an excellent compromise. Of course "Set SPI Generator" or "Set SOI as SPI Generator" would be the final 2%, the icing on the cake so to speak. ;)

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But that is not what TMS fwd long does.

That is why "Make SPI" isn't very helpful.

The selected sensor does designate the 3D-Position and it continues to do so when it changes its LOS, or in case of the Steerpoint switches to another WP/MP. This does not require to "Make SPI" again.

Basically TMS fwd long selects the sensor which now designates the coordinates of the SPI, until another SPI designator is selected. Page 400/401 of the DCS manual lists all possible SPI designators... and yes, SPI designators is the term used in the manual written by ED.

Your description of the functionality is correct, but at the very moment you press TMS FWD LONG to designate the current SOI as SPI generator you "make a SPI" at the 3D position that the SOI is currently pointing at. So if you say "make that position the SPI" it is technically correct, altthough it is not the best way to put it.


Edited by QuiGon

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Your description of the functionality is correct, but at the very moment you press TMS FWD LONG to designate the current SOI as SPI generator you "make a SPI" at the 3D position that the SOI is currently pointing at. So if you say "make that position the SPI" it is technically correct, altthough it is not the best way to put it.
No, the SPI is created/first loaded into the system during startup when the data-cartridge is accessed and the planned mission waypoints are transferred. The default SPI is the first steerpoint selected, which defaults to the first waypoint of the initial flightplan. If you start and take off without ever touching the TMS the SPI defaults to WP0 (Init Position).

You can verify this yourself: Make a mission place just an A-10C on ramp, don't create any waypoints, just start up, take off and notice the SPI indicator extending from WP0.

When you press TMS fwd long you do NOT make/create/generate the SPI as it is already there. You select a NEW source/generator/designator for the SPI and that is UPDATING the coordinates from now on, until you select another sensor or reset it to steerpoint.

 

THE SPI IS ALWAYS THERE! NO NEED TO MAKE ONE.

 

The "Make SPI" stands for "Make the selected SOI the new designator for the SPI's coordinates and use it to update them from now on"!

And this is exactly why it is a good idea to optimize the DCS manual here, as even long time DCS veterans in the A-10C struggle to understand how the SPI concept works and think the TMS fwd long is required to "make a SPI"... :wallbash:

Shagrat

 

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And to support this you may read the ominous Air Force Flight manual under "SPI" it explicitely says: "A SPI is always present unless there is an error condition such as a failed CDU."

You can not "Make" a SPI. You "make" the selected SOI or the Steerpoint the donor for the SPI coordinates. The SPI is continously updated whenever a sensor donating the SPI coordinates is slewed or switched!

TMS fwd long does NOT send/create/make/paint/generate/designate/donate the coordinates, it selects the new sensor as donor! This is the whole crux! :notworthy:

Shagrat

 

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True, it should rather say "shift SPI to new position" instead of "make SPI on new position" in my previous comment which only was an attempt to make sense of what LJQCN101 said. :)

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"Set current SOI as SPI donor" ... can we all agree on this? There's almost 10 pages of this thread of useless back and forth

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It's funny enough, though - also I learned something valuable, since I didn't fully understand I don't have to "set SPI" everytime I slew my TGP around.

 

So for me, "set SPI generator" was really enlightening and helped me in my operations. I certainly find that to be more precise than just "make SPI".

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It's funny enough, though - also I learned something valuable, since I didn't fully understand I don't have to "set SPI" everytime I slew my TGP around.

 

So for me, "set SPI generator" was really enlightening and helped me in my operations. I certainly find that to be more precise than just "make SPI".

 

 

 

 

Haha! nice of course you would... another german agreeing. Fine with me. funny you just said the exact same thing I got in PM from someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

Shagrat you forgot to mention that I gave you the info about the USAirforce manual.

 

I know what it is.

 

 

 

I've said all of this. Including the fact that a SPI is always present. Just as a Steerpoint is always present. You can however change either of them.

 

 

 

As the Steerpoint SPI, it will never change or update unless you change to another steerpoint. Just as with a TGP LOS SPI, it will not change or update unless you slew it or select another SPI (from either another SOI or any of the 3 other ways to obtain a SPI).

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As the Steerpoint SPI, it will never change or update unless you change to another steerpoint. Just as with a TGP LOS SPI, it will not change or update unless you slew it or select another SPI (from either another SOI or any of the 3 other ways to obtain a SPI).

That's wrong. You can change the coordinates of the steerpoint, which will then also change the position of the SPI, if STPT is set as SPI generator. At least in DCS, but maybe DCS is wrong here and it works differently IRL?

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It's funny enough, though - also I learned something valuable, since I didn't fully understand I don't have to "set SPI" everytime I slew my TGP around.

 

So for me, "set SPI generator" was really enlightening and helped me in my operations. I certainly find that to be more precise than just "make SPI".

 

 

 

 

How long have you been flying like this?

 

 

 

Who was your trainer? What did you think happened when you moved the TGP while the LOS was SPI?

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How long have you been flying like this?

 

 

 

Who was your trainer? What did you think happened when you moved the TGP while the LOS was SPI?

"LOS was SPI"? :huh:

LOS is not a sensor that can provide a SPI. LOS just means line of sight.


Edited by QuiGon

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"Set current SOI as SPI donor" ... can we all agree on this? There's almost 10 pages of this thread of useless back and forth

The problem with "donor" is, it is not used anywhere in DCS Manuals SPI chapter (Pages 400/401), whereas the terms of "SPI generator" and "SPI Sensor Designators" is present and would be a good choice for consistency and isn't misleading at the same time.

"Set current SOI as SPI generator/designator" would be consistent options.

Shagrat

 

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Haha! nice of course you would... another german agreeing. Fine with me. funny you just said the exact same thing I got in PM from someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

Shagrat you forgot to mention that I gave you the info about the USAirforce manual.

 

I know what it is.

 

 

 

I've said all of this. Including the fact that a SPI is always present. Just as a Steerpoint is always present. You can however change either of them.

 

 

 

As the Steerpoint SPI, it will never change or update unless you change to another steerpoint. Just as with a TGP LOS SPI, it will not change or update unless you slew it or select another SPI (from either another SOI or any of the 3 other ways to obtain a SPI).

Was talking/responding to QuiGon.

Shagrat

 

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That's wrong. You can change the coordinates of the steerpoint, which will then also change the position of the SPI, if STPT is set as SPI generator. At least in DCS, but maybe DCS is wrong here and it works differently IRL?

 

 

I said it won't update unless you change it. If you enter change the coordinates in the CDU, it is changing the steerpoint ergo changing the SPI.

 

 

 

If steerpoint A is coordinate 1234 and you manually change it to 5678. it is a new steerpoint.

 

The steerpoint name/number may stay the same, but its 3D position will change.

 

 

 

What else is a 3D point?

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I said it won't update unless you change it. If you enter change the coordinates in the CDU, it is changing the steerpoint ergo changing the SPI.

 

 

 

If steerpoint A is coordinate 1234 and you manually change it to 5678. it is a new steerpoint.

 

The steerpoint name/number may stay the same, but its 3D position will change.

 

 

 

What else is a 3D point?

If you change the coordinates of a steerpoint in the CDU it will still remain the same steerpoint (Steerpoint A) and not become a new steerpoint (Steerpoint B), but it will shift to a new position and so will the SPI.

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How long have you been flying like this?

 

 

 

Who was your trainer? What did you think happened when you moved the TGP while the LOS was SPI?

That is the problem you seem not to understand: the majority of DCS players DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL INSTRUCTOR PILOT! They fly single player and often actually use only the DCS Flight manual to learn the new game they bought. The majority never even launches Multiplayer.

Believe it or not, there is even a majority that never visits these forums etc.

Shagrat

 

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I said it won't update unless you change it. If you enter change the coordinates in the CDU, it is changing the steerpoint ergo changing the SPI.

 

 

 

If steerpoint A is coordinate 1234 and you manually change it to 5678. it is a new steerpoint.

 

The steerpoint name/number may stay the same, but its 3D position will change.

 

 

 

What else is a 3D point?

Correct.

Shagrat

 

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"LOS was SPI"? :huh:

LOS is not a sensor that can provide a SPI. LOS just means line of sight.

 

 

 

 

Speak to Shagrat.. he knows what I am referring to. page 401 of the manual..Explains what defines the SPI.

 

 

 

For the TGP it is the LOS

 

For the TAD it is the hook symbol

For the maverick it is the Maverick LOS

For the HUD it is the STPT (default) or GUN SOLUTION/STPT/CCIP SOLUTION orCCIP RETICLE Depending on submode.

 

 

 

 

 

Shagrat is finally catching on.. you should speak directly to him for help.

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If you change the coordinates of a steerpoint in the CDU it will still remain the same steerpoint (Steerpoint A) and not become a new steerpoint (Steerpoint B), but it will shift to a new position and so will the SPI.

 

 

 

 

I should be more specific, I realize I need to be with you.

 

 

 

If you enter new coordinates, the steerpoint, WILL change. Just the "name" of the steerpoint will remain. the 3Dpoint will change!

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