Can You Fly Formation Aerobatics Without Multiplayer?

^ True. Just tested it to see what happens. The "old" aircraft follows some new, generic path generated by mission editor, using AI physics. Not really surprising given how replay system works in DCS (not tracking and recording unit paths, but only control inputs, with strict division between player and AI controlled units).

Add me to the list of people who would LOVE to have the ability to fly along with a previously recorded track for formation/demo practice. I do not believe this would be very difficult to implement (since our tracks can already be saved) and would be infinitely better than the option of flying alongside mission editor created AI

Add me to the list of people who would LOVE to have the ability to fly along with a previously recorded track for formation/demo practice. I do not believe this would be very difficult to implement (since our tracks can already be saved) and would be infinitely better than the option of flying alongside mission editor created AI

The track system is unreliable and would need to be improved before anything can be done in this direction

The track system is unreliable and would need to be improved before anything can be done in this direction

I disagree with this statement. Perhaps the track system is "unreliable" (though I have found it quite accurate actually when flying solo). There are "bugs" all throughout DCS and system "hiccups" are certainly not uncommon. So I don't think any of us would be insisting on 100% perfection if track recorded AI aircraft could be implemented. It would still be 100% better than the options we now have using the mission editor for the purpose of formation/aerobatic flight.

I am curious why a few of you actually seem to think it is a poor idea....:doh:

Because to many have seen their track aircraft go no where near where it was actually flown to, IF they even get off the ground when a take off was involved. There are many factors that cause this so is hard to nail down.

And its not that it is a bad idea, it is a good one, but one that needs track files to be addressed before it can truly be enjoyed to be used.

It's too bad you can't have your track play back and fly along with that playback in a new plane. Then take that track and do it again until you have as many planes in your formation as you want. (Let's get the tracks working for all planes first though. Bit of a mess right now.)

It's too bad you can't have your track play back and fly along with that playback in a new plane. Then take that track and do it again until you have as many planes in your formation as you want. (Let's get the tracks working for all planes first though. Bit of a mess right now.)

I'd love this and would be willing to pay for some kind of DCS "aerobatic team flying" tool or mod. You could create your own Blue Angels routine in single player which would be amazing! As others have said though, it would require some attention to the track recorder which can sometimes be wonderfully accurate and other times not so much :(

+1. I did exatly that formation flying with (freeware)fsrecorder in fsx. Perhaps we should open a thread in the 'wishlist' section directing to this thread

+1. I did exatly that formation flying with (freeware)fsrecorder in fsx. Perhaps we should open a thread in the 'wishlist' section directing to this thread

I think we should! I'm amazed this sort of thing hasn't been implemented years ago given this sim's focus and target audience. :pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly:

I'm not overly surprised considering how well just regular 'review your own mission' tracks tend to work.

Only issues with track files I've had is DCS crashing trying to start them, but once it starts it ran 100% exact as flown, including an hour and half long formation flight and formation landing with like 10 aircraft on the GR server. I think all the tricks posted in all the threads here helps, do not fast forward, do not touch it for 10 minutes while the flight starts, only replay on the exact version of DCS that recorded it, ect.

anyonebutme,

You have just been lucky in one way or the other. Whether it is your hardware combination or something else. But have done ALL of those things and in my experience, if a track is messed up, its just plain messed up.

Most of the time its just not following the directed inputs properly. Doesnt turn enough or react in the same way, thus sending the airplane crashing off in some other direction other than the one actually flown.

Tracks are MOST reliable when gotten off a machine that had no aircraft flying FROM them, just observing, since they do not have any control inputs. They just track where the aircraft went. But I have seen even those tracks misbehave in my 7 plus years of DCS experience.

Take it for what its worth, some people have great luck, many others have terrible luck and a whole lot fall in between.

I think ED could really spend a bit of time on a proper "Airshow" or "Formation Aeros" mod. Perhaps where you have a place in pre-recorded formations and all the ins and outs of formation aerobatics such as timing and calls could be trained using tutorials and where the lead is talking to his wingmen... "puuuuuull, a little more puuuuuull" etc etc. Just thought ED... just a thought... How much do I want to bet it would be one of the best selling modules they have made...

If you set them up right, AI can look quite realistic. Sometimes not. But the link I have here is me flying with two AI aircraft.

The problem with the AI maneuvers, that your video even shows, is the sudden entry into any transition. This does not bode well for CLOSE formation work. For combat spread, its fine.

You are 100% correct.

However, how would you fly with an AI in close formation, even straight and level, when the AI gets to a slow turn? I don't think an AI can do a slow, precision entry into a loop, even if timing was right; I think it's difficult for a human to do it. Humans DO do it, but it takes hours and hours of practice plus extremely good comms to get it right on a consistent (safe) basis.

("Do do" it? God, I hope my English Comp proff doesn't read this...)

Would be good if you could voice record too! Then you could call out the maneuvers to yourself. (Again, only after everything else about virtual radio is working correctly, please. :) )

Voice recording isn't a problem at all. Just record your voice by your preferred means, put the sound file in the mission as a radio transmission from some random nearby unit. Done.

Is there anyway to attach a trigger to a waypoint, such that 10 seconds before the AI turns, you get a warning??

Yes, on my Reno Race mission built for VARS (Virtual Air Racing Series), I have a pace plane that gets spawned in. I used aerobatic maneuvers to have it do a couple easy 90 degree turns to lead the racers to the race start point. Using triggers, there are voice overs on exactly when the turns are executed.

It can be done, but is a very tedious process to get everything timed right.

Cheers Shahdoh ... so do'able, but not simple.

This is something I have wanted since LOMAC.

I did send an email to the devs with the reply "We will look into it" or something of that nature.

Everytime I booted up FS9 or FSX it was to formation fly with FSRecorder, it worked really well except the fidelity of the physics/controls didn't allow you to fly with the same accuracy as you can in DCS, but it worked.

You can kind of make the AI enter a turn smoothly-ish but it is still dodgy. For example, you can set a turn commend that starts at 10 degrees bank, get the AI to hold that for lets say a 3 degrees heading change, set another turn command for 20 degrees bank, and hold that for 8 degrees, set another turn command for a 30 degrees bank and hold it for 15 degrees etc and then do the same thing again but in reverse to transition back into straight flight.

But, it would be better if we had for each maneuver a 'transition time'. For example, you command the AI for a 3G turn, and you can set, lets say 5 seconds for 'transition time' so that the AI takes 5 seconds from when the it starts the turn to when the AI is finally at 3G. The same could be done for climbs and descents too. This will let us make the AI behave more naturally instead of instantly going into an instant 3G turn that we can't keep in close formation with.

But, one of the most fun things with formation flying is not just the flight itself, but the formation takeoff and landing.

Even though I would love (1000%) to have a FSRecorder style formation flight with myself in DCS, that would be, for a lack of a better word 'heaven', I think adding 'transition time' for maneuvers would be easier than implementing the FSRecorder style formation flying.

But, now that I have said that, why can't we have both?

This is something I have wanted since LOMAC.

 

I did send an email to the devs with the reply "We will look into it" or something of that nature.

 

Everytime I booted up FS9 or FSX it was to formation fly with FSRecorder, it worked really well except the fidelity of the physics/controls didn't allow you to fly with the same accuracy as you can in DCS, but it worked.

 

You can kind of make the AI enter a turn smoothly-ish but it is still dodgy. For example, you can set a turn commend that starts at 10 degrees bank, get the AI to hold that for lets say a 3 degrees heading change, set another turn command for 20 degrees bank, and hold that for 8 degrees, set another turn command for a 30 degrees bank and hold it for 15 degrees etc and then do the same thing again but in reverse to transition back into straight flight.

 

But, it would be better if we had for each maneuver a 'transition time'. For example, you command the AI for a 3G turn, and you can set, lets say 5 seconds for 'transition time' so that the AI takes 5 seconds from when the it starts the turn to when the AI is finally at 3G. The same could be done for climbs and descents too. This will let us make the AI behave more naturally instead of instantly going into an instant 3G turn that we can't keep in close formation with.

 

But, one of the most fun things with formation flying is not just the flight itself, but the formation takeoff and landing.

 

Even though I would love (1000%) to have a FSRecorder style formation flight with myself in DCS, that would be, for a lack of a better word 'heaven', I think adding 'transition time' for maneuvers would be easier than implementing the FSRecorder style formation flying.

 

But, now that I have said that, why can't we have both?

All I can say is that the more people here voice their want for something like this the more likely the devs will tke it seriously. I totally get that it's a case of supply and demand. If they can create a formation flying module and make a good profit on it then they will make it. It's that simple.

ED, can you please consider doing a formation display module? It can be applicable to any aircraft and it's a unique opportunity to create something never done before in simulation. It can be a simple "FSRecorder" style mod or a complex one with a UI where one can specify maneuvers made by the aircraft in some sort of user-friendly way. Being able to create your own complex aerobatic routines with the same flight physics as that of the player aircraft would literally transform our flying experience. The "airshow" aspect of DCS for most users is totally untapped. We don't all have 8 friends who can be online all at once to make up a formation. And perhaps we want to tweak our formations however we want. I get this is not an easy task but surely this is doable and very marketable? I'm prepared to bet half the community would want something like this for whatever aircraft they fly in DCS.

Anyway, here's hoping...

Formation flying in DCS has been popular since LOMAC where virtual aerobatics teams became a thing.

Personally I don't play DCS too often, but when I enter a server and ask people to formation fly the level of competency of the other pilot is a luck of the draw, and frankly it is difficult to find someone that knows what they are doing.

As I also play other games too, joining a team would be out of the question for me, and considering I am a full time night shift worker, my choices are very limited.

I do like the idea of doing a formation/aerobatics module, that sounds like a great idea and I am sure that plenty of people will purchase it as who doesn't like to formation fly? It is a big part of military flying.

Personally the chances of the devs being open to the idea seems limited as this is primarily a combat simulator, but because the simulator is so good it draws in people that are not really concerned about the combat aspects, but just the fun of flying realistic military aircraft in a FSX kind of way.

I really hope they do consider it at some point.

The main issue with all of this (and has been mentioned) is not the facility of the AI aerobatic commands, but the SFM the AI use and how jittery and 'non physical' it can be. Anyone that has refuelled a few times in DCS will have seen how a huge tanker can suddenly bank hard and pull, and this is the basic fundamental issue. It is well understood and known, but I guess it's scheduled behind a bunch of other more important work that is being churned through.

An AI SFM update is very much wanted across the board, but the short term answer is you have to have willing multiplayer partners to do anything moderately good.