Can't takeoff/land straight because no visual cues...

So I read the taildragger essays stickied here, I've gotten to where I can takeoff without running into the grass, and make decent landings without running into the grass, but the one thing I simply cannot do is maintain a straight line on my takeoff roll or my landing roll out. I weave all over the runway.

The issue here is that I can't even see enough of the runway to know where my current position on the pavement is, and thus no idea of which pedal to press nor how hard/long to press it. The only reference I have is what little tarmac I can see out the 2 and 10 positions, and by the time I notice there's more tarmac on the 10 than on the 2, I've already weaved across the runway.

Do you guys just use VR and "stick your head out the side" to see where you're going on takeoff/landing?

Look straight and only use your peripheral vision, once you look to one side! Well you know what's going to happen, you go that way and then back the other.

You also don't want to over do it to one side, that's why they call it a dance, you cannot correct in one big go without disturbing the weight distribution.

One hit to stop the direction, one hit to bring the nose back to center to keep her balanced etc.

If you hit it big in one go you will scrape the wing or ground loop etc.

Even IRL (As seen in below video)

The trick to landing is having a really good setup on the approach, correct speed and trim and no side loading as seen in the above video.

Also zoom back enough to see the sides of the runway etc.

This one below you can see from the side view also.

I did this one awhile ago for others to see a landing from the outside rear view, as you can really see the dance here, I landed with some cross side loading. Watch the weight transfer and the dance to hold onto it, one to stop the direction and the dance to regain balance, then bring the nose back around.

Also, add full back stick once down to keep the tail planted and as you get slower you will need to add a little more and more brake + pedal to keep her going straight with the dance.

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That still doesn't deal with my primary problem of not being able to see. If I can't see I can't do the dance. I have absolutely zero reference for where I am on the runway, and therefore no clue as to which direction I need to correct until I'm already two-thirds to one side of the runway. Oddly I can't find any resources for dealing with this in taildraggers.

That still doesn't deal with my primary problem of not being able to see. If I can't see I can't do the dance. I have absolutely zero reference for where I am on the runway, and therefore no clue as to which direction I need to correct until I'm already two-thirds to one side of the runway. Oddly I can't find any resources for dealing with this in taildraggers.

Just zoom your view back far enough to see each side of the runway in your peripheral vision and keep them even as possible. We cannot feel the side movement effects of the aircraft the same as IRL, well unless you have a good sim motion platform, so you need to train your eyes and only look straight using your peripheral vision.

Move your seated position back and or your view so you can see more of the sides, experiment to suit your needs and practice a lot.;)

I posted the other things so you can see the rest of the picture of what happens to taildraggers. You cannot just stomp on the pedal the same as you can in tricycle gear aircraft.

Ah, gotcha. I've always been zoomed in more to read the gauges, but it seems like I don't really need the gauges beyond setting +8 boost, correct?

Ah, gotcha. I've always been zoomed in more to read the gauges, but it seems like I don't really need the gauges beyond setting +8 boost, correct?

I use Chuck's DCS Tutorials, here is a screenshot of the landing page, if you haven't? I would suggest downloading from HERE

The better your trimmed up nicely for landing the better the landing generally I've found:)

I generally try and be around 120 mph and trimmed nice and stable, then slow to 90 - 100 and hold her up there just above the runway until she mini stalls to a 3 pointer.

Ah, yes, for the landings my approaches are typically fine, though I tend to do a 2-point landing as I haven't gotten used to the flare. Once I'm on the ground, I've been doing the rudder dance and rarely ever scrape the wings any more, but refining my technique and staying straight on the runway is where I fail. I'm basically driving drunk once the wheels are on the pavement.

I focus on a point or a cloud in the sky, helps a lot. I know clouds move, but not fast enough (in DCS) to cause a problem.

I also use VR, which just generally gives a better feel for what the plane is doing...

I'm starting to get things better, I think. Still haven't had time to review my tracks. One big problem I have is that, even though I'll keep the nose straight, I somehow end up drifting way off my intended flight path, typically to the right, once airborne. This is with zero winds.

It does take time, Nealius, but as with anything, the more you practise the better you'll get.

Regards the drift post-takeoff, that'll be because of the full right rudder trim you had dialled in at takeoff; as the speed increases after takeoff it rapidly becomes over effective because of the ever increasing airflow over the rudder.

You have to start dialling the rudder trim back to the left - how much will depend on your power settings, rate of climb and airspeed.

As a rule I don't have too much rudder trim in at takeoff - I find having the double d's of the 'RUDDER' notation on the trim wheel to the two o'clock position suffices to take the edge off the torque pull but gives nicer feel after lift-off whilst I get the airframe cleaned up and get to my climb speed.

See my tutorial about the takeoff, may be you get some clues, minute 13:

But to takeoff when you are in the runway you have to be sure you are line up with the runway heading, look both side left and right of the runway, with the help of the track ir you can move your head to the left or right to check if you are lined up, and ASAP you have enough speed try to raise your tail until get the takeoff speed

You can try the two ways to takeoff, raising the tail with low speed until get takeoff speed, or keep the 3 wheels on the ground... with the first one you will be able to see forward, with the other one you need one mechanic hand out the wing telling you the direction xD

Do you really need help to take off and land with the spitfire? Or with any DCS warbirds? It's strange that you can not see if you're going right or not? Do you have pedals?A track IR?or nothing at all of these features?

Once the plane is stabilized in a straight line, whether it is at level, descent or landing, there is no need to tinker with the controls, leave the plane on its trajectory. Just a rounding up before touching the wheels.

At takeoff it's a bit different because the programmers have represented the torque reversal. So the best way to take off is to do it with the minimum power. The runways are very long in DCS.Then to stay in the axis you have to lift the tail of the aircraft as soon as possible, to be effective on the rudder.

Finally, the advice may seem idiotic, but choose difficult situations to practice, and after all will become simple.

look at these videos you will see that it is not complicated:

http://cromhunt.proboards.com/thread/342/weird-warbirds-landings

http://cromhunt.proboards.com/thread/346/dcs-world-crosswind

And remember that the training is your friend

I'm starting to get things better, I think. Still haven't had time to review my tracks. One big problem I have is that, even though I'll keep the nose straight, I somehow end up drifting way off my intended flight path, typically to the right, once airborne. This is with zero winds.

1) Spitfire replay tracks are notoriously unreliable in 2.5, so you won't be able to review them anyway. Better - don't bother with saving them at all :D;

2) full right rudder trim for takeoff, as per manual, makes it easy to "drift off" to the right after liftoff. Actually, I'd hazard a guess most of us do it, so don't feel bad;

3) zoom out is not necessary (i use default "zoomed-in-after-hitting-fly" view, and do fine), though it probably will help in learning process. Fixing on clouds/sun, or at least slip indicator is better option in the long run;

4) DCS Spit is just absurdly oversensitive to any rudder inputs compared to 3 remaining warbirds. Whether it's accurate or not, I don't know, but it is what it is. On one hand it's good, because it makes lack of tailwheel lock acceptable, on the other hand it makes overcompensating very easy, and you can afford departing only a dozen or so degrees left or right before the plane groundloops out of control.

For this reason, even with my MFG Crosswing pedals I still use 20% curvature, as the plane is just too damn twichy in yaw axis. Tweak your rudder axis settings and practice, practice, practice. You'll get there.

Do you really need help to take off and land with the spitfire? Or with any DCS warbirds? It's strange that you can not see if you're going right or not? Do you have pedals?A track IR?or nothing at all of these features?

Only the Spit and Mustang, as the nose blocks my view. Without a clear view of the threshold or center line, I have trouble lining the aircraft up and staying aligned. With all my other modules (Mi-8, Uh-1, AV8B, M2000C, A10C, Viggen) I'm perfectly fine.

I have TrackIR, X52, and Saitek pro rudder pedals. Again, the issue is the nose blocking my view, and with my TrackIR I can't stick my virtual head outside the cockpit.

I'm finding one huge issue I have with the Spit is that once I manage to line up on the runway, either from F2 view or looking out the rear to see the center line behind me, I cannot straighten the tail wheel. It's stuck in whatever turn position I was in last, and once I throttle up the aircraft immediately wants to continue the turn.

1) Spitfire replay tracks are notoriously unreliable in 2.5, so you won't be able to review them anyway. Better - don't bother with saving them at all :D;

 

2) full right rudder trim for takeoff, as per manual, makes it easy to "drift off" to the right after liftoff. Actually, I'd hazard a guess most of us do it, so don't feel bad;

 

3) zoom out is not necessary (i use default "zoomed-in-after-hitting-fly" view, and do fine), though it probably will help in learning process. Fixing on clouds/sun, or at least slip indicator is better option in the long run;

 

4) DCS Spit is just absurdly oversensitive to any rudder inputs compared to 3 remaining warbirds. Whether it's accurate or not, I don't know, but it is what it is. On one hand it's good, because it makes lack of tailwheel lock acceptable, on the other hand it makes overcompensating very easy, and you can afford departing only a dozen or so degrees left or right before the plane groundloops out of control.

 

For this reason, even with my MFG Crosswing pedals I still use 20% curvature, as the plane is just too damn twichy in yaw axis. Tweak your rudder axis settings and practice, practice, practice. You'll get there.

I host MP over my LAN on an old laptop. Server tracks have been 100% reliable with the Spit so far in the few I've seen. I do the same with the Viggen. Client tracks, on the other hand, yeah those are always messed up from the get-go.

My pedals are set with a deadzone of 5 and either 25% or 35% curvature, and they're still quite sensitive. I don't know if I should go higher or not.

 

I'm finding one huge issue I have with the Spit is that once I manage to line up on the runway, either from F2 view or looking out the rear to see the center line behind me, I cannot straighten the tail wheel. It's stuck in whatever turn position I was in last, and once I throttle up the aircraft immediately wants to continue the turn.

 

Tip: Don't stop dead then turn onto runway heading but practice turning whilst carrying your taxii speed.

As you come off the taxi way on to the runway give about half rudder input the way you wish to turn then give a positive but brief tweak of the brake; get this balance right and you will get the nose swinging but it will start to diverge (accelerate), so immediately go to full rudder in the opposite direction and start feathering your brake inpout to keep the turn rate under control.

As you *near* (not at - you have to preempt this) the heading you want to end up pointing you increase the frequency and the depth of your brake input enough to first slow then eventually stop the turn but not stop the a/c fully. Once at your desired heading centralise your rudder and release the brakes.

Get it right and the plane will be still rolling straight at a much reduced speed on your desired heading - this means your tailwheel has straightened out behind you and will now not kick you off in an awkward direction when you power up for takeoff.

At this point you can either carry the roll on into the takeoff or gently apply the brakes and come to a complete stop to do last minute takeoff checks.

I host MP over my LAN on an old laptop. Server tracks have been 100% reliable with the Spit so far in the few I've seen. I do the same with the Viggen. Client tracks, on the other hand, yeah those are always messed up from the get-go.

You damn lucky bugger :D. I've been using the Spit module since its release and I've had a simple taxi-takeoff-pattern-landing track playing corectly ONCE on my computer, literally. It's the worst DCS plane in my hangar in this aspect.

It only shows, however, how intermittent and user-hardware-dependent the track issue is and why ED doesn't seem to be bothered with touching this mess.

 

As you *near* (not at - you have to preempt this) the heading you want to end up pointing you increase the frequency and the depth of your brake input enough to first slow then eventually stop the turn but not stop the a/c fully.

 

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By "depth" of the brake input, do you mean the duration that I keep the brakes pressed?

Hi Nealius, no I mean the amplitude, as in more or less, rather than duration.

With rudder and brakes you'll find that the spit tends to respond better to many shorter inputs of a moderate strength than one long and powerful input. This is why I suggest to 'feather' your brake input to control the turn rate.

This is really where practise comes in, because with so many different factors (wind, groundspeed, engine power setting, taxiing surface) providing variables there is no single 'do it this way to this standard measure' answer. Ultimately the input you need to put in and the strength and duration of that input will vary slightly every time!

Ergo, you have to respond to the aircraft but because so much of the behaviours require pre-empting to correct them in a timely fashion, it takes a while to learn what is too much or to little and how this changes depending on the factors outlined above. Ultimately it will become more intuitive but that only comes with experience!

A little confused on the amplitude of the brakes, since in DCS it's only a momentary button press. I can't seem to map it to an axis (all my axes are taken anyway).

you need three things:

1- practice

2- practice some more

3- practice even some more.

my only advice is to use both legs against eachother. dance on the rudder.

A little confused on the amplitude of the brakes, since in DCS it's only a momentary button press. I can't seem to map it to an axis (all my axes are taken anyway).

It's certainly available as an axis as I have one mapped! However, given that you lack sufficient axes the point, as they say, is moot.

However, it is my understanding that the button activation does take a second or so to go from 0-100% so there should be a sweet spot were you can press briefly-release-press briefly-release and accomplish the desired outcome.

Hi Nealius I find the best way of keeping her straight during both takeoff and landing is to use the 'Turn Indicator' gauge. On takeoff once you apply +8 boost apply right rudder and look in cockpit at the turn indicator needle. If you gently play on the rudder to keep this needle as close to center as you can, the aircraft will be travelling in a straight line. Don't worry about looking outside before you are airborne until you get the hang of this. Once you get reasonable at keeping it straight you could then move on to letting the tail up at around 60 mph so you can see better, but I still look at turn indicator needle to gauge use of rudder even at this stage.

Landing, if you are pointing straight down the runway at touchdown then heads down and play on the rudder pedals to keep that turn indicator needle centered again. Personally I don't use the brakes as she will slow down OK anyway. Just keep the needle centered until you roll out your speed to a stop. Once you master that then you can judge your speed to transition straight into a taxi.

Hi Nealius I find the best way of keeping her straight during both takeoff and landing is to use the 'Turn Indicator' gauge. On takeoff once you apply +8 boost apply right rudder and look in cockpit at the turn indicator needle. If you gently play on the rudder to keep this needle as close to center as you can, the aircraft will be travelling in a straight line. Don't worry about looking outside before you are airborne until you get the hang of this. Once you get reasonable at keeping it straight you could then move on to letting the tail up at around 60 mph so you can see better, but I still look at turn indicator needle to gauge use of rudder even at this stage.

 

Landing, if you are pointing straight down the runway at touchdown then heads down and play on the rudder pedals to keep that turn indicator needle centered again. Personally I don't use the brakes as she will slow down OK anyway. Just keep the needle centered until you roll out your speed to a stop. Once you master that then you can judge your speed to transition straight into a taxi.

Absolutely!! Could not agree more, be prepared for the real pilots telling you that's all wrong though :music_whistling:

One more little trick I that I found useful is to map the commands "Wheel Brakes Increase" & "Wheel Brakes Decrease" to a button (or a keyboard combo if using TM TARGET) and then map that to something that's real easy to reach on the stick.

I'm using a Hog and map it to Counter Measures Hat Up and Down. You could use the paddle but then you'll only be able to increase them

If you are not dead straight (& I'm not good enough to do that consistently) you will loose rudder authority as you slow, you're watching the turn needle and you'll see that rudder inputs has less (or no) effect.

When that happens give the button or whatever you are using on the stick a flick, it will apply the brakes progressively and hold them there until you use the "Wheel Brake Decrease"

Rudders will then become effective as you are applying brakes too, tap, tap, tap on the rudders. I am never arrow straight doing this but reasonable enough to hold it around the center line

I find the best way of keeping her straight during both takeoff and landing is to use the 'Turn Indicator' gauge.

wrong. dont even look at slip gauges keep your eyes outside the cockpit. Only gauges you should be looking at are the engine gauges.

wrong. dont even look at slip gauges keep your eyes outside the cockpit. Only gauges you should be looking at are the engine gauges.

I would also support this principle.

The last thing you want on takeoff/ landing is to have your head inside the cockpit.

I can easily see whether I am lined up properly in the spitfire on takeoff. Landings can be a little more difficult if you come in too high, or nose-up/ "flare" on touchdown (which you dont need to do in the spitfire).

There is enough visibiliy either side of the engine cowling for me to judge if my nose is drifting sideways.