Why is refueling in simulators so hard?

What? Feeling the forces of flight is very important when it comes to the differences between Real World and SIM and imperative to the fine controls of flying. Yes, pilots fly with their eyes but at 30,000 ft, your visual perception doesn't change that much from so high up and it is the forces placed upon your body that helps you determine when you are drifting or in an unwanted acceleration.

No, forces really aren't imperative to fine flying. In fact, particularly for instrument flying, you're taught to completely ignore them because they'll fool you.

Feeling forces becomes useful when doing aerobatics (provides a cue for how hard you're pulling) but this is an exception.

This is my experience as an aerobatic pilot.

No, forces really aren't imperative to fine flying. In fact, particularly for instrument flying, you're taught to completely ignore them because they'll fool you.

 

Feeling forces becomes useful when doing aerobatics (provides a cue for how hard you're pulling) but this is an exception.

 

This is my experience as an aerobatic pilot.

Acceleration/forces are fundamental for good performance, at least in VFR conditions. You can fly only with your eyes, as we do in any sim, but forces help a lot to understand what's going on, the atmosphere around you, how it is affecting the aircraft, etc. and so to fly better and more accurately.

This is my experience as a glider pilot.

the main problem is 2D screens. Go 3d or do Vr and this becomes a level 0 task. For Us on the ground the perception of true depth is very important.

the main problem is 2D screens. Go 3d or do Vr and this becomes a level 0 task. For Us on the ground the perception of true depth is very important.

yes, that adds to the problem of sims even though this is more relevant in a range within 100 meters, which affects only some tasks, like air-to-air refueling or landing.

I had an acquaintance that was really into Race car Sims and he had a full set up and everything. And the thing that I noticed was that I couldn't determine my speed or the rate of my acceleration just by "feel" I rarely look at my speedometer in rl but I know when I've hit the "sweet spot" of 40mph. In game, I was constantly looking at this SIM speedometer and found that I was always wrong and had trouble simply maintaining a single speed. (i.e. I couldn't maintain a speed of 100mph without drifting between 80-120 mph. Which meant that I always had to look at my speedometer before entering a turn which was a distracting thing to do every time I hit a curve.)

I totally agree with this. It's hard to "drive formation" in any racing/driving sim/game but incredibly easy IRL. Depth perception makes a big difference. It's hard to describe, but IRL it's as if you can sense that you're getting closer or falling behind before there's any real significant visual change in the apparent size of the car in front of you. It's like more of a feeling than an obvious visual cue.

but the experience of reality isn't something i can find on wikipedia... damn :lol:

Enduro14 is spot on. W/O VR, I'm constantly looking at gauges because you can't "feel" how fast you're going. Not to mention it's difficult to fly in close formation. With Rift, it becomes *SO* much easier because you get sense the movement. It makes *all* the difference when doing NOE or landing.

As a long time Falcon flier, honestly, I think the DCS aar is unrealistically difficult.

Nope.

The A-10 has no autotrim, the F-16 FBW does incorporate that, plus the F-16 engine has less input lag. That and that BMS used to have a simplified FM when connected contributed to that myth. I don't know how it is now.

A2A refuelling in the A-10 is not overly difficult.

No, forces really aren't imperative to fine flying. In fact, particularly for instrument flying, you're taught to completely ignore them because they'll fool you.

 

Yep. And AAR isnt instrument flying.

Yep. And AAR isnt instrument flying.

You're missing the point. During IFR you're specificially taught to ignore what you feel and concentrate on looking at what your intruments are telling you.

What you and carlos.gh seem to be saying is once you're VFR (i.e. doing AAR) those forces that you previously had to ignore can now somehow be trusted to help you fly the plane, because you can now see outside?

I'm open to an explination of how that would work, but at the moment I can't see how that makes any sense.

That's easy. When you can see, you can correlate that information with what you're feeling. When you're IMC, you can't.

There are times your body will sense a motion before your eyes will detect it. I use the example of a tail dragger such as a Beech 18. On the ground you would feel it starting to yaw before you saw it. I would not have wanted to fly (take-off and landing) that airplane without having had the real physical sensations.

Refueling in DCS A-10 appears to be a hot topic. I see other threads giving advice, but I don't think it's modeled accurately. This isn't the first time I've seen this; refueling in Falcon 4.0 was like this too.

 

I get that there is a wake coming off the tanker but I don't think that receivers in the real world get thrown around by it that much. As an observer, I've flown several missions with the 190th ARW. Receivers, especially fighters, roll up, park, plug, and bounce. They are stable enough on the boom that they can take their hands off the throttle and wave to the guys in the pod. See video

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As a Boom Operator for over 22 years with 2700 hours in the KC-135 and almost 5000 hours in the KC-10A I can tell you for fact EVERY receiver is bounced around in the wake turbulence of tanker aircraft no matter how easy they made it look. However, most aircraft have sufficient thrust available to counteract the effects and close to contact with what appears to be little effort. This isn't the case with the A-10. There are other factors in play not being considered. "Bow Wave" is the air being pushed in FRONT of the receiver and it interacts with the wake and in most cases air frame of the tanker.

First, the A-10 engines don't like high altitude. The A-10 was designed for in the weeds CAS, not cruising around at 15000 feet chasing a Tanker. The pilots are usually at full throttle just to keep up with the tanker. And quite often we had to perform Toboggan manuevers to get the A-10 that little extra smash just to get in.

Second, The TANKER has to slow down...dramatically! Usually to a speed requiring some degree of flaps and / or leading edge slats to maintain level flight. This increases the deck angle of the tanker and the associated wake turbulence the receiver must overcome just to reach contact position.

Third, The BOOM is flying. The Ruddervators in the case of the -135 and Elevator and Rudders in the case of the -10 need airspeed to perform properly. Aerodynamically the boom is usually only 10 knots or so above the speed at which it quits flying.

Finally, Once the Pilot overcomes all of the above and more, and he actually makes it to contact, a single Air Refueling pumps is powerful enough that unless everyone pats their heads and rubs their tummys juuuust right...The pressure increase extends the boom and the Receiver falls off the back...and we start the process over again.

The only complaint I have with DCS refueling right now is the Boom should be trailed at approximately 30 degrees elevation until the boom makes contact. The sudden "Popup" that happens as you close to contact is not correct, which throws the entire evolution off because you have to readjust your closure...

Reading another post reminded me of important tips. Remember, You are not refueling from the BOOM, you are refueling from and should be flying formation on the tanker. Choose some visual references to help you maintain position on the TANKER, not the Boom. Personally I use the inboard engines moving up and down the center windscreen posts. It will help judge speed of closure, Position holding, throttle input etc. Also do not fixate on one thing. Keep your eyes moving.

As a Boom Operator for over 22 years with 2700 hours in the KC-135 and almost 5000 hours in the KC-10A I can tell you for fact EVERY receiver is bounced around in the wake turbulence of tanker aircraft no matter how easy they made it look. However, most aircraft have sufficient thrust available to counteract the effects and close to contact with what appears to be little effort. This isn't the case with the A-10. There are other factors in play not being considered. "Bow Wave" is the air being pushed in FRONT of the receiver and it interacts with the wake and in most cases air frame of the tanker.

 

First, the A-10 engines don't like high altitude. The A-10 was designed for in the weeds CAS, not cruising around at 15000 feet chasing a Tanker. The pilots are usually at full throttle just to keep up with the tanker. And quite often we had to perform Toboggan manuevers to get the A-10 that little extra smash just to get in.

 

Second, The TANKER has to slow down...dramatically! Usually to a speed requiring some degree of flaps and / or leading edge slats to maintain level flight. This increases the deck angle of the tanker and the associated wake turbulence the receiver must overcome just to reach contact position.

 

Third, The BOOM is flying. The Ruddervators in the case of the -135 and Elevator and Rudders in the case of the -10 need airspeed to perform properly. Aerodynamically the boom is usually only 10 knots or so above the speed at which it quits flying.

 

Finally, Once the Pilot overcomes all of the above and more, and he actually makes it to contact, a single Air Refueling pumps is powerful enough that unless everyone pats their heads and rubs their tummys juuuust right...The pressure increase extends the boom and the Receiver falls off the back...and we start the process over again.

 

The only complaint I have with DCS refueling right now is the Boom should be trailed at approximately 30 degrees elevation until the boom makes contact. The sudden "Popup" that happens as you close to contact is not correct, which throws the entire evolution off because you have to readjust your closure...

 

Reading another post reminded me of important tips. Remember, You are not refueling from the BOOM, you are refueling from and should be flying formation on the tanker. Choose some visual references to help you maintain position on the TANKER, not the Boom. Personally I use the inboard engines moving up and down the center windscreen posts. It will help judge speed of closure, Position holding, throttle input etc. Also do not fixate on one thing. Keep your eyes moving.

Thanks for the insight!

Would you agree to the statement that the DCSW AI tanker crews are not very cooperative or would you say they do ok communication-wise and concerning their flying?

You're missing the point. During IFR you're specificially taught to ignore what you feel and concentrate on looking at what your intruments are telling you.

 

What you and carlos.gh seem to be saying is once you're VFR (i.e. doing AAR) those forces that you previously had to ignore can now somehow be trusted to help you fly the plane, because you can now see outside?

 

I'm open to an explination of how that would work, but at the moment I can't see how that makes any sense.

The difference between centering a thermal in Condor and in RL is quite noticeable. Even the best varios usually need 2 secs or more to show the change in the air mass vertical speed. Even the eyes see something a little bit later than your haptic sensors, if there is a visual clue at all.

On the other hand, position of your body regarding the vertical can also help a lot to fly accurately without looking at the instruments constantly (as meny VFR pilots do).

As AlphaOneSix says, it is the integrations which adds information and allow you to fly more accurately.

There are times your body will sense a motion before your eyes will detect it. I use the example of a tail dragger such as a Beech 18. On the ground you would feel it starting to yaw before you saw it. I would not have wanted to fly (take-off and landing) that airplane without having had the real physical sensations.

More familiar example is driving on an icy road and entering a skid. You feel it way earlier than you see the nose of the car doing anything out of the ordinary. And you also correct the skid mostly by feel.

For me the most important thing about this topic is not to find what is wrong with refueling in DCSW, but which changes would make the biggest difference in realism.

And then of course the question how a change could look like. Perhaps we can find a common stance on what could be the most important things and how they could be achieved, and thus help the ED developers to decide what to do, and how. :)

Hmm. S'pose I've been looking at things slightly simplistically.

Still, I think it's certainly a matter of opinion how much of a difference it makes.

I lower my seat for a better view on the boom.

Freeze trackir helps quiet a bit cause you get better queues of movement versus a now fixed pit

Thanks for the insight!

Would you agree to the statement that the DCSW AI tanker crews are not very cooperative or would you say they do ok communication-wise and concerning their flying?

LAWL...

I have said on many occasions if the AI Boom Operator was in my squadron...we'd have words. seriously, for what it is, the AI boom does a pretty good job all things considered. unlike humans, AI doesn't "learn". It took me about a year of formal training and regular "vanilla" training sorties before I was competent and more importantly comfortable doing my job. But each time I flew, I learned something I could use next time no matter what I was refueling. AI doesn't work like this.

In MY opinion...the AR evolution is a little tough. Is it accurate, sure...as far as I can tell. But why? Are we actually training for combat? If we don't get the AR and have to eject...have we actually scrapped a 25 million dollar airframe? All things considered, I wish AR was like the ground refueling / rearming process. Not "prototypical" but not teeth pulling either. Make it easier to get on and stay on the boom...and more people will use tankers...

this sim provides easy radio, easy flight and even game mode.

i think easy ar should exist in the sim too. lots of players don't have trackir or preceise hotas systems which can help during this kind of tasks.

ı have a crazy throttle whose throttle axis always spikes, so it seems impossible to perform minor speed adjustments :D