Serious question. Mirage or Harrier?

Harrier climbs faster to 3 km altitude than even F-15C, and it has very powerful engine for air combat to quickly accelerate and quickly speed down, and very tight turn radius (thanks to Viffing).

 

 

 

 

 

what?

 

 

 

F15C has a statistically better thrust/W ration and importantly a better Climb rate than the Harrier 2+

 

 

254 m/s vs 75m/s, respectfully.

 

 

 

 

Even from a pure gameplay experience Flying FC3 F15 and current radar-less Av8b NA ( and thus lighter than the av8b +) it certainly doesn't stack up to the F15's raw flight performance in acceleration or climb.

 

 

 

Against the F15 all you've got is turn n burn as a defence, but still not anywhere near as good as its fans hyped. This below is Not an uncommon sight.

 

 

 

 

 

Against older Korean fighters. Harriers arguably more disadvantaged because theey cant out turn them , nor can it rely on running away due to inferior top speed. It basically needs to kill such planes in a head on pass with all apsect heaters.

 

 

Harrier may have better performance than than an A10 but its still a ground pounder and not suited for most dogfight scenarios.

 

 

I dont know who you are trying to kid here.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kev2go

what?

 

 

 

F15C has a statistically better thrust/W ration and importantly a better Climb rate than the Harrier 2+

 

 

254 m/s vs 75m/s, respectfully.

 

 

 

 

Even from a pure gameplay experience Flying FC3 F15 and current radar-less Av8b NA ( and thus lighter than the av8b +) it certainly doesn't stack up to the F15's raw flight performance in acceleration or climb.

 

 

 

Against the F15 all you've got is turn n burn as a defence, but still not anywhere near as good as its fans hyped. This below is Not an uncommon sight.

 

 

 

 

 

Against older Korean fighters. Harriers arguably more disadvantaged because theey cant out turn them , nor can it rely on running away due to inferior top speed. It basically needs to kill such planes in a head on pass with all apsect heaters.

 

 

Harrier may have better performance than than an A10 but its still a ground pounder and not suited for most dogfight scenarios.

 

 

I dont know who you are trying to kid here.

Yeah, but even the mighty F-15C can't really kill an P-51D in DCS, and an F-15C killed by a "put any supposed inferior plane here" , is no uncommon sight, either in MP.

 

I wouldn't advertise the AV-8B as an air superiority fighter, but in the hands of a capable pilot, most planes are "better" than top notch planes in the hands of a rookie.

 

I for example lack the training with the F-15C and especially the radar modes.

So I am sure when I fly the F-15C, anyone could hand me my ass, while I am trying to get a lock on them. And in a turn fight I am surely screwed against a professional in an F-86 or MiG-15.

Besides, if you are up against a country with MiG-15 as an air force you will send AMRAAM equipped planes (maybe even AV-8B+) to take them out on ling range and simply put a SAM near any vital part infrastructure.

 

These made up dogfights between antiques and modern equipment are certainly fun and nice to watch, but common sense would be that in a real fight it is highly unlikely this ever happens.

 

If someone enjoys dogfigting MiG-21s, F-5Es in AV-8Bs, why not? You may have a challenge in MP to win the majority of fights, but in the end it boils down to pilot skills and handling.

 

Just my 2 cent.

what?

 

 

 

F15C has a statistically better thrust/W ration and importantly a better Climb rate than the Harrier 2+

 

 

254 m/s vs 75m/s, respectfully.

 

 

Even from a pure gameplay experience Flying FC3 F15 and current radar-less Av8b NA ( and thus lighter than the av8b +) it certainly doesn't stack up to the F15's raw flight performance in acceleration or climb.

 

 

Harrier may have better performance than than an A10 but its still a ground pounder and not suited for most dogfight scenarios.

 

 

I dont know who you are trying to kid here.

 

I recommend you to watch the video you quote, and I emphasis the 43:50 position....

 

Of course you can as well read about it:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qTLAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA501&lpg=PA501&dq=Harrier+climb+record+15000ft&source=bl&ots=RWPimTsMt4&sig=X0IKDp9ropnpztO2CN0wFWGzK38&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihtIa69LHaAhWiJ5oKHTJ-CQ0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Harrier%20climb%20record%2015000ft&f=false

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

I recommend you to watch the video you quote, and I emphasis the 43:50 position....

 

Of course you can as well read about it:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qTLAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA501&lpg=PA501&dq=Harrier+climb+record+15000ft&source=bl&ots=RWPimTsMt4&sig=X0IKDp9ropnpztO2CN0wFWGzK38&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihtIa69LHaAhWiJ5oKHTJ-CQ0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Harrier%20climb%20record%2015000ft&f=false

 

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

 

 

:doh:

 

 

 

Irrelevant as the harrier in question is not even the same aircraft as the avb8 na or the av8b +

 

 

The source you reference is the UKs version the sea harrier which has better flight performance than the version we have in game or would get in the future as a follow up.

 

Not to mention the f15 in question when this test was done in 1975 was even before the actual production f15a even entered service.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kev2go

:doh:

 

 

 

Irrelevant as the harrier in question is not even the same aircraft as the avb8 na or the av8b +

 

 

The source you reference is the UKs version the sea harrier which has better flight performance than the version we have in game or would get in the future as a follow up.

 

Not to mention the f15 in question when this test was done in 1975 was even before the actual production f15a even entered service.

Doesn't matter at all what you say.

Almost all records are done with special aircrafts... And harrier beats F-15 in the climb to 3km....

 

Harrier can out turn even hornet etc.

 

So dah for yourself.

I didn't cherry pick anything, you didn't even read what was told...

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

 

Doesn't matter at all what you say.

Almost all records are done with special aircrafts... And harrier beats F-15 in the climb to 3km....

 

 

 

 

 

Um yes it does matter. As the variants in question that would reflect your claims are not in dcs and the versions we have in dcs ( or will get) Do matter ,and thus Harrier in question ( av8b NA or Av8B+) arent able to outclimb the F15C ( Not F15A pre service)

 

Using stats the f15c can by a considerable margin beat the av8b + or even the Ingame NA in climb.

 

And if you somehow doubt paper stats of these respective aircraft your more than welcome to do a side by side test in dcs. But then that will just tell us what we already know from looking at paper stats, and it would be denial to again say otherwise.

 

Whilst I haven't directly done side by side in game performance tests just by feel of flight the f15 throttles away much better in a climb than the harrier could dream to. Not to mention you can't hold max throttle in a harrier for longanywwys since it overheats fast and it damages the engine and degrades it's performance. So you can push it it it's limits for long anyways.

 

 

 

So dah for yourself.

I didn't cherry pick anything, you didn't even read what was told...

 

 

 

 

The title of the thread is HArrier or M2000. The Harrier in dcs is the av8b NA. and you simply claimed Harrier can outperform a F15C in a straight climb. You didnt specify earlier you were actually taking about the HArrier Gr1, and not the version that Razbam has created, or the harrier 2 + planned for the future.

 

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3447769&postcount=39

 

 

 

Within the context way you said it, im sure you and others can come to understand how this can be misleading non informed people that you are referring to the Av8b harrier 2 + ( and indirectly the av8b NA since it is lighter) as being to accomplish such powerful fight performance comapred to the F15. Which is not true and then these sorts of posts lead you see comments in MP comments in chat and thread topics created" Why cant my harrier beat F15 in a dogfight" or why can i out climb the F15C like someone kept saying in the forums" BUG BUGS BUGS. av8B underperforming......." etc etc.

 

So you can see why your post came off as misleading whether intentional or not, and why i had to take it upon myself to clarify those claims.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kev2go

Yeah, but even the mighty F-15C can't really kill an P-51D in DCS, and an F-15C killed by a "put any supposed inferior plane here" , is no uncommon sight, either in MP.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't advertise the AV-8B as an air superiority fighter, but in the hands of a capable pilot, most planes are "better" than top notch planes in the hands of a rookie.

 

I for example lack the training with the F-15C and especially the radar modes.

So I am sure when I fly the F-15C, anyone could hand me my ass, while I am trying to get a lock on them. And in a turn fight I am surely screwed against a professional in an F-86 or MiG-15.

 

 

 

 

Besides, if you are up against a country with MiG-15 as an air force you will send AMRAAM equipped planes (maybe even AV-8B+) to take them out on ling range and simply put a SAM near any vital part infrastructure.

 

These made up dogfights between antiques and modern equipment are certainly fun and nice to watch, but common sense would be that in a real fight it is highly unlikely this ever happens.

 

If someone enjoys dogfigting MiG-21s, F-5Es in AV-8Bs, why not? You may have a challenge in MP to win the majority of fights, but in the end it boils down to pilot skills and handling.

 

Just my 2 cent.

 

 

Not anymore unfeasible suggestion than DACT training scenarios where team blue is restricted from awacs support and from using Ammrams or heaters, where in practice they would be able to use Short range and BVR medium range Missiles to engage targets before they are in gun range.

 

You can still have a big advantage against the f86 and mig15 even without using missiles. There is more to dogfighting than turning circles all day.

 

You use you vastly superior energy and badly better climb to essential energy to bnz these aircraft all day. If the situation isn't favourable just throttle away and zoom climb like a ufo away from these venerable jets. And keep slashing at them. All you have to do is avoid turnfighting.

 

Your guns still have gunnery solutions via rqdar so getting kills isn't as hard as you think. I have gotten gun kills on these jets even on A spitfire once simply by avoiding turning and using my vastly superior speed and thrust to weight ratio to my advantage.

 

. You can and engage and disengage from the fight at will. You should never be shot down by a mig15 or f86 in a F15C if you aren't distracted by fighting a modern era aicraft.

 

Pilot skill only matter to a certain extent. An average pilot still has a far bigger advantage due to technological platform, weapons & avionics advantage than a expert pilot in much older obsolete airframe.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kev2go

It is awesome how some topics can spiral away from the original question :D

Amazing !!!

Will we get the radar and AMRAAM equipped harrier at any point?

As another module, or as an upgrade to the current one?

For the Harrier II+ with radar I understood rather "maybe" than "will do" :music_whistling:

 

Anyway, it's too soon, don't hold your breath about it, let them finish Night Attack :smilewink:

For PICKLE72, Regardless.....did you decide yet, we all want to know, y'know, because we have all had to do this at some time, welcome to DCS by the way

For the Harrier II+ with radar I understood rather "maybe" than "will do" :music_whistling:

 

Anyway, it's too soon, don't hold your breath about it, let them finish Night Attack :smilewink:

That is how I understand it too. More like 70/30 change that it is such a rework that it is profitable by amount of work to put in. As ain't the engine still the same? So it would be about radar and avionics change and slight flight model change for changed weight and FLIR? Shouldn't be so work heavy as to this day...

And these are things that I would accept as UPGRADE fee to harrier N/A (so you need to own N/A and then get "upgrade" for lower price to +).

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

Back to the original questions..... the Mirage was my go to jet for ages but just picked up the Harrier four days ago and can't see myself letting this one sit at all. Loads of fun.

 

Hopefully we get as good a quality manual as we did for the Mirage..hint hint...

Back to the original questions..... the Mirage was my go to jet for ages but just picked up the Harrier four days ago and can't see myself letting this one sit at all. Loads of fun.

 

Hopefully we get as good a quality manual as we did for the Mirage..hint hint...

 

For Harrier you can easily find the real manuals which were used to code the Harrier :music_whistling:

For PICKLE72, Regardless.....did you decide yet, we all want to know, y'know, because we have all had to do this at some time, welcome to DCS by the way

 

Yep, I chose the Mirage. For no other reason than the fleshed out campaign. I however have been so busy with work that I don't even have my HOTAS set up yet for it. I'm about 75% there I think.

So far, just a few training missions and free flights to get things set up, I am loving it.:thumbup:

i would tend to agree, the Harrier no question if you like a little A2A and mainly Ground Pounding. I am not a A2A guy and have dabbled in the M2000 but for me it has to be the harrier, even in its current state, but soo we will have a TAD :)

Yep, I chose the Mirage. For no other reason than the fleshed out campaign. I however have been so busy with work that I don't even have my HOTAS set up yet for it. I'm about 75% there I think.

So far, just a few training missions and free flights to get things set up, I am loving it.:thumbup:

 

Hey Pickle72,

 

Well, that’s what I like to hear, thanks! hope you won’t be disappointed with the campaign, and when you finish it, there will be a whole Red Flag one - if you own the NTTR map.. ;) yeah, DCS is the bottomless well ;)

I am really looking forward to the Red Flag campaign!

 

I managed two kills last night. One was blue on blue, but he bailed out so I don't feel so bad. It was just a quick mission I made to practice radar, I ended up using my wingman as target practice for the cannon. He will forgive me, in time.

The other was a radar missile kill of a mig 29. So satisfying. His wingman killed me a second later tho.

Yes, I'm having fun:joystick:

Hi Pickle72, Well done for making a decision, that's the hard part. Now enjoy your module, you will get the others in time I'm sure. The Mirage is wonderful, and it can get places quickly. On these large map areas, that helps. We cannot spend all day getting from A to B. It has all the systems you want to manage, Charlie Owl's handbooks are a must, Hope you enjoy it

How does Harrier compare with A10C

How does Harrier compare with A10C

Harrier is faster, can climb faster than F-15C to 3km, can carry four anti radiation missiles (Sidearm). Can carry same weapons but just less Mavericks (4x as I understand).

 

Pilot cockpit ain't armored so pilot can die even from small arms fire. Harrier is far, far more accurate in bombing with Mk82 or similar because ARBS system. Harrier is far nicer to fly and operate at night as you have FLIR in HUD. Harrier is faster in CAS as it can land nearby, rearm and get back, but it has far less loitering time and less weapons in max load but can fly slower around.

 

Harrier can far better defend itself against air threats by maneuvering but can't really use Cannon for ground targets so well as it points more up for A-A purposes.

 

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

can't really use Cannon for ground targets so well as it points more up for A-A purposes.

 

Sure, no gun beats the GAU-8 in AG, but this is bold statement:

 

Ok, it's AV-8A, yet it's the same GAU-12 gun.

Sure, no gun beats the GAU-8 in AG, but this is bold statement:

 

Ok, it's AV-8A, yet it's the same GAU-12 gun.

If you would carefully read again you would know what I am talking about.... I give you a tip, nothing about penetration capability.....

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....