F-16 evaded SIX R-27ER missiles! - Page 8 - ED Forums
 


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Old 08-21-2019, 05:24 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ironhand View Post
DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T STEP THROUGH THAT PORTAL!!!

FIGHTINGFALCON? ... FightingFalcon? ???

Damn! Another one lost to the Dark Side...


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Old 08-23-2019, 03:22 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhand View Post
DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T STEP THROUGH THAT PORTAL!!!

FIGHTINGFALCON? ... FightingFalcon? ???

Damn! Another one lost to the Dark Side...
My friend there is nothing that stop this behavior. The Russian missiles are wrong simulated by ED and The fighter Collection is a western company owner actions in Russian developers company.

I will keep playing missions made by me in Single Player. This situation is a nightmare for the people that want more Russian fighters.

The Russian missiles stages guidance are not simulated. From the moment that R-27 leave the rail the semi active head seeker get activated giving sooner warning missile launched to every western RWR (every one, even A-10A) and this is a fake simulation that only help F-15, F-18 and western hardware in this simulator. The situation awareness for western RWR is enhanced by developers.

The missile drag value for all Russian missiles is exaggerated by developers. the mark of not scape range (second mark from above for left range mark when target lock) is exaggerated downgraded by the drag value that developer input in this calculation. See video and go straight to the simulator and replicate same situation with all values from the video.



All the western aircraft have enough time to turn around because all the Russian missiles get draggy by developers.

They don't want simulate R-27P missiles variant even when have been official comments from Russian staff those missiles are in development from 90s:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27ep1.html

R-27T guidance system have an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on. Our R-27T get decoy from the moment it leave the rail in a wrong simulation by developers:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27et1.html

R-27ER in our Sim it is just a semi active head seeker homing guidance from the moment it leave the rail. This is wrong and we have years saying them it is wrong with the result R-27 get decoy sooner in his guidance phase:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27er1.html

and after all that said. keep an eye in this thread that after some Trolls attack will be closed soon.

And know what! take a look in Aim-54. It is the Iskander Ballistic missile Air-Air variant by ED. no ECM, no maneuvers, no radar land clutter (it is a mini Maverick in is radar?) affect this 1000 lbs weight missile.

Just in case this example work for somebody: after many times destroyed shelters in bluefor airfield with a Russian missile that work perfect for that. Two weeks after, the value for shelters was modified with twice strongest value, with the unrealistic result the shelter get not destroyed with a single missile. This situation happen in an anti redfor online server and online tracks file was analyzed. Shelters value changed after that in official DCS version...
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:08 PM   #73
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Guys, dicussing if the R-27 famliy is undermodeled is exosted to bits... even ED said it needs the update and that they plan to update them.

So basicliy only thing which can be done it requesting that they increse the priority of the updated since I think we all agree that the Red air needs a bit of love and that its undermodeling is hurting a big part of the community.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:31 PM   #74
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I can see it becoming the priority once they work on the Kuznetsov
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:09 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1234 View Post
The missile drag value for all Russian missiles is exaggerated by developers. the mark of not scape range (second mark from above for left range mark when target lock) is exaggerated downgraded by the drag value that developer input in this calculation. See video and go straight to the simulator and replicate same situation with all values from the video.



All the western aircraft have enough time to turn around because all the Russian missiles get draggy by developers.

They don't want simulate R-27P missiles variant even when have been official comments from Russian staff those missiles are in development from 90s:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27ep1.html

R-27T guidance system have an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on. Our R-27T get decoy from the moment it leave the rail in a wrong simulation by developers:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27et1.html

R-27ER in our Sim it is just a semi active head seeker homing guidance from the moment it leave the rail. This is wrong and we have years saying them it is wrong with the result R-27 get decoy sooner in his guidance phase:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/milita...-_r-27er1.html

and after all that said. keep an eye in this thread that after some Trolls attack will be closed soon.

And know what! take a look in Aim-54. It is the Iskander Ballistic missile Air-Air variant by ED. no ECM, no maneuvers, no radar land clutter (it is a mini Maverick in is radar?) affect this 1000 lbs weight missile.
R-27T/ET:
Quote:
The missile guidance system employs an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on accomplished on the suspension under the carrier.
- Proportional navigation means the missile use lead pursuit to target to save energy. First Fox 2 used pure pursuit which exhaust energy quicker Vs manoeuvring targets.
- this page does confirm that the missile is LOBL (Lock On Before Launch).
So there is nothing wrong if the missile goes for flare at any moment.

In fact all Fox 2 from this generation in the game are prone to go for the flares. This isn’t a biased against R-27T/ET

R-27P/EP: is there any sign of widespread use of this missile by Russian Air Force ?

I will re-test defence against AIM-54, but at Tomcat release I tried against IA F-14B (and in my book IA uses the same missiles as players), and I was perfectly able to beam AIM-54 with M-2000C when I spotted the “M” on RWR.

This is an early video. Note that the shooter is largely supersonic in the test.



You can see how to evade AIM-54, but it will be very hard to support a R-27ER guidance while AIM-54 is incoming.
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:22 AM   #76
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The only evidence of P or EP existence are the green fuses of some R-27s in Syria(unless laser fuses on R or T) and that they were offered to India recently. Chizh said there is no evidence of use by Russian Forces which I believe
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:06 AM   #77
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@jojo your explanation about why R-27 must remain with this poor performance and wrong guidance is not based in a real knowledge but in your imagination and feeling happy that this simulator give you so easy air targets like that. Because is clear you personally don’t like much Russian fighters. If you don’t know how work Russian missiles or even don’t know how use them. Please don’t post ridiculous poor knowledge explanations in this thread that is been used to help a user that trying learn more about SU-27 and he find hard get success with such a trash of missiles for redfor side in this simulator.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:34 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1234 View Post
@jojo your explanation about why R-27 must remain with this poor performance and wrong guidance is not based in a real knowledge but in your imagination and feeling happy that this simulator give you so easy air targets like that. Because is clear you personally don’t like much Russian fighters. If you don’t know how work Russian missiles or even don’t know how use them. Please don’t post ridiculous poor knowledge explanations in this thread that is been used to help a user that trying learn more about SU-27 and he find hard get success with such a trash of missiles for redfor side in this simulator.

The thing is you must have clear mind to assess what happen in the sim.
1- how does it work in sim ?
2- is the effect realistic ?

I went in missile .lua file. I’m at work right now, but when back home I’ll post the .lua values and you will see that R-27T/ET in game isn’t worse for flare resistance than AIM-9M or Magic 2.
I will also post AIM-7 Vs R-27 chaff résistance from the game.

I’m not telling you that this is normal real world behaviour, I’m telling you that this is the same on both side for weapons of the same era. So it isn’t biased to one side as you suggest.

[Edit]Found Tacview and tracks
If one make it wrong, you can miss all missiles.

And so far I don’t see real world knowledge from you, only public sources and I didn’t waited for you to know that R-27R1/ER1 have LOAL capacity.
This capacity is said to extend firing range.
A FCR (Fire Control Radar) has greater lock on range than SARH seeker because of bigger antenna. So LOAL allows to shoot at greater range.
It doesn’t mean that it’s used in every cases.
And you source confirms that R-27T/ET are LOBL, as in game.

Typical SARH lock on range for western seeker for fighter size targets were around 50km.
But if you shoot farther than that, this is fair to have low PK, because you give plenty of time to the target to escape. So there is few practical use for R-27R/ER LOAL feature.

But at the end of the day, if you are fighting Fox 3 with Fox 1 you are at disadvantage.
Only group tactics can allow you to succeed.

Let’s keep the patriotic pride out of this if we want to understand. In the M-2000C we saw a lot of guy complaining about Super 530D. A lot of them didn’t understand Fox 1 and Doppler Radar limitations.
A new guy comes and say “R-27ER are crap, I’ll rather go for F-15C”.
And instead of teaching him how to properly use Su-27 you’re posting biased comments.

I’m mostly curious of technology and fighters. I did spend some time trying to translate Su-27SK manual available on the web (parts about weapon system), the same with MiG-29 9.12a manual available. I bought pdf copy of MiG-29G manual.
At least make me the favour to use real backed up argument to sustain your claims.
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Last edited by jojo; 08-25-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:45 AM   #79
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At the end of the day you still keep posting wrong explanation about SARH missile guidance. Maybe you believe the guidance for R-27 must work the same as your Mirage missiles. Keep in mind we are not talking about Mirage in this thread. Also we are not doing comparison about other missiles as you do in your Post. And also with your examples of Mirage combat you are posting off-topics that not help at all.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:23 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1234 View Post
At the end of the day you still keep posting wrong explanation about SARH missile guidance. Maybe you believe the guidance for R-27 must work the same as your Mirage missiles. Keep in mind we are not talking about Mirage in this thread. Also we are not doing comparison about other missiles as you do in your Post. And also with your examples of Mirage combat you are posting off-topics that not help at all.
You're questionning my explanation but you aren't posting any explanation at all about you're beloved R-27 and why it should be more immune to decoy. It's SARH with LOAL, we already talked about it. I question your affirmation that it should transition to SARH only in terminal phase like a Fox 3 with its own radar. Or you should provide a reliable source to sustain it, and then I will agree.
But SARH is SARH in the end. Or is Russian SARH magical and can't be decoyed ?

Quote:
Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Scripts\Database\Weapons\missiles_data.lua

Name = AIM_7, --AIM-7M
ccm_k0 = 1.0, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

Name = AIM_9, --AIM-9M
--seeker sensivity params
SeekerSensivityDistance = 20000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters. In forward hemisphere.

ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

Name = P_27T, --R-27T
--seeker sensivity params
SeekerSensivityDistance = 25000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters. In forward hemisphere.
ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

Name = P_27TE, --R-27ET
SeekerSensivityDistance = 25000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters.
ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

Name = P_73, --R-73
--seeker sensivity params
SeekerSensivityDistance = 20000, -- The range of target with IR value = 1. In meters.
ccm_k0 = 0.5, -- Counter Countermeasures Probability Factor. Value = 0 - missile has absolutely resistance to countermeasures. Default = 1 (medium probability)

R-27R/ER, AIM-120B/C and R-77 don't have ccm_k0 parameters.
But AIM-7M is set to 1 = default value. We can assume that without the parameters the value is set to default.

This is a game, not real life technology.
So all missiles have the same guidance code with different tweaking parameters.
These Fox 2 missiles have the same flare CCM value.
R-27T/ET have slightly longer IR detection range, they also have much more powerful engine by design and according to real life missiles.

So I don't see how Flanker's Fox 2 missiles are tweaked down to give more chance to blue side ?
As far as CCM is concerned, it isn't worse or better than blue Fox 2 (apart from AIM-9X witch CCM at 0.2, but this is new generation imaging IR seeker).

You can question how DCS World code guidance logic, but keep in mind that these are the same logic for all missiles with tweaked parameters. So it isn't biased to make easy targets for NATO side. This is unfair accusation.
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