How to deal with wake turbulence

With the wake turbulence effect now modeled in DCS, I'm wondering how combat aircraft, and specifically the A-10, deal with this in real life (well... how their pilots deal with it, obviously ;)).

I'm specifically interested in takeoffs and landings.

Being a sim pilot, I have 0 frame of reference in regards to the real world. In DCS, the effect is currently fairly pronounced, to the point that hitting the wake turbulence of another A-10 during takeoff or landing is borderline suicidal.

Now even if DCS exaggerated the effect (again, I don't know if it does), the problem surely exists in the real world as well.

How do pilots deal with it? Are there procedures for different types of takeoff (element takeoff, time-separated takeoff, 4-ship takeoff) to alleviate the issue? I'm thinking lateral separation, time separation, or different rotation speeds might all be valid ways to reduce the likelihood of trailing aircraft getting into dangerous turbulence on takeoff.

As for landing, the same ideas come to mind, like lateral separation, time separation, altitude separation, touchdown point separation.

I would appreciate any ideas and hints for real world operations, whether it's "Yeah, there's this 200 page document" (*) or "The wingman just has to deal with it" or anything in between. ;)

(*) Remember rule 1.16; don't share or link or even name documents newer than 1980. If in doubt, I'll take a PM.

With the wake turbulence effect now modeled in DCS, I'm wondering how combat aircraft, and specifically the A-10, deal with this in real life (well... how their pilots deal with it, obviously ;)).

 

 

 

I'm specifically interested in takeoffs and landings.

 

 

 

Being a sim pilot, I have 0 frame of reference in regards to the real world. In DCS, the effect is currently fairly pronounced, to the point that hitting the wake turbulence of another A-10 during takeoff or landing is borderline suicidal.

 

 

 

Now even if DCS exaggerated the effect (again, I don't know if it does), the problem surely exists in the real world as well.

 

 

 

How do pilots deal with it? Are there procedures for different types of takeoff (element takeoff, time-separated takeoff, 4-ship takeoff) to alleviate the issue? I'm thinking lateral separation, time separation, or different rotation speeds might all be valid ways to reduce the likelihood of trailing aircraft getting into dangerous turbulence on takeoff.

 

 

 

As for landing, the same ideas come to mind, like lateral separation, time separation, altitude separation, touchdown point separation.

 

 

 

I would appreciate any ideas and hints for real world operations, whether it's "Yeah, there's this 200 page document" (*) or "The wingman just has to deal with it" or anything in between. ;)

 

 

 

(*) Remember rule 1.16; don't share or link or even name documents newer than 1980. If in doubt, I'll take a PM.

Air Force and Navy I would assume have different operating procedures.

If you are asking about the A10 it is designed to handle pretty nasty weather and flies extremely well in any weather.

Landing however is not a large issue as you do not have the volume of wake as you would from a large volume engine pushing massive amounts of air from an engine at a higher RPM.

As far as takeoffs, again the wake would largely depend on the engine's thrust against your aircraft's control surfaces where tipping could occur.

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https://youtu.be/Kh-4izcSahM

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Lead lines up downwind of wingman (assuming a quartering headwind)

Rotate and lift off at a point closer to your starting point than the guy ahead of you. Climb above his wake.

Approach and land slightly longer than the guy ahead of you.

This is how it’s done IRL.

Wingman is always into wind yes but I have never rotated early or landed long.

I understand the principle you are talking about but it was never applied in fighters ( at least USAF and RAF ). The jets don't produce enough turbulence to make a significant difference.

On a stream landing from a break just land at the start of the runway with 3000ft between aircraft.

If you are doing a pairs approach then as per take off the wingman is on the upwind side.

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Wingman is always into wind yes but I have never rotated early or landed long.

 

I understand the principle you are talking about but it was never applied in fighters ( at least USAF and RAF ). The jets don't produce enough turbulence to make a significant difference.

 

On a stream landing from a break just land at the start of the runway with 3000ft between aircraft.

 

If you are doing a pairs approach then as per take off the wingman is on the upwind side.

 

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I was wondering about the wakes generated by fighters. I remember reading about the wingman on the upwind side during pair takeoff, and 20 second delays if doing single takeoffs. I imagine the 20 second delay is more for all the hot exhaust over the runway instead of the wake.

Is DCS wake turbulence somewhat overmodeled? I'll see real-world videos of Tomcats doing simultaneously launches from a carrier with no trouble, but when I try it in DCS my Tomcat goes squirrely from the turbulence.

Well, if the expert fighter pilots here are correct, then yes, it’s way overmodeled.

I was wondering about the wakes generated by fighters. I remember reading about the wingman on the upwind side during pair takeoff, and 20 second delays if doing single takeoffs. I imagine the 20 second delay is more for all the hot exhaust over the runway instead of the wake.

 

Is DCS wake turbulence somewhat overmodeled? I'll see real-world videos of Tomcats doing simultaneously launches from a carrier with no trouble, but when I try it in DCS my Tomcat goes squirrely from the turbulence.

Having natural weather conditions will improve conditions as it will displace heated air and turbulent conditions.

The carrier's I would assume (not a Navy guy) would not have as much of an issue as the carrier's are generally moving several knotts to stay in wind and steady the boat.

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Wake Turbulence is not enforced server side. AFAIK, it’s a client setting right now.

Wake Turbulence is not enforced server side. AFAIK, it’s a client setting right now.

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I have not thoroughly tried and tested DCS's however one thing that comes to mind is that most servers generally have weather turned off.

 

Having natural weather conditions will improve conditions as it will displace heated air and turbulent conditions.

 

The carrier's I would assume (not a Navy guy) would not have as much of an issue as the carrier's are generally moving several knotts to stay in wind and steady the boat.

 

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I always run weather on my single player missions, and that's where I've encountered bad turbulence from simultaneous carrier launches. I don't think DCS wake turbulence is affected by weather--it's probably a scripted effect with intensity and duration hard-programmed into the aircrafts.

I always run weather on my single player missions, and that's where I've encountered bad turbulence from simultaneous carrier launches. I don't think DCS wake turbulence is affected by weather--it's probably a scripted effect with intensity and duration hard-programmed into the aircrafts.

One of the Admins (USSR Rik, maybe?) posted a link to some test animation where the wake turbulence behind a jet was visualized in 3D and you could clearly see it drifting downwind crossing a parallel runway and blowing across the adjacent ramp. Now, I don’t know if that level of fidelity is what we have right now in DCS but the video showed that wake turbulence can move with the wind (as it does IRL)

One of the Admins (USSR Rik, maybe?) posted a link to some test animation where the wake turbulence behind a jet was visualized in 3D and you could clearly see it drifting downwind crossing a parallel runway and blowing across the adjacent ramp. Now, I don’t know if that level of fidelity is what we have right now in DCS but the video showed that wake turbulence can move with the wind (as it does IRL)

Here you can actually see a good representation of how fast it can be displaced by wind.

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Excellent responses, thank you guys, much appreciated!

As far as takeoffs, again the wake would largely depend on the engine's thrust against your aircraft's control surfaces where tipping could occur.

Interesting!

I believe engine exhaust aka heatblur is only a visual effect so far and has zero influence on other aircraft.

What I'm seeing in MP is that even with 20 seconds separation on take off, the wingman may encounter some fairly severe turbulence that dips a wing down by as much as 45 degrees.

https://youtu.be/Kh-4izcSahM

Excellent video, thanks!

Looks like 20 seconds between aircraft. I think I saw #3 and #4 encounter some very mild turbulence; their wings wiggled a tiny little bit after takeoff, where #1 and #2 looked rock solid.

Again, what I'm currently seeing in DCS is much stronger than that.

Lead lines up downwind of wingman (assuming a quartering headwind)

 

Rotate and lift off at a point closer to your starting point than the guy ahead of you. Climb above his wake.

 

Approach and land slightly longer than the guy ahead of you.

 

This is how it’s done IRL.

All of that makes perfect sense to me, thanks!

Wingman is always into wind yes but I have never rotated early or landed long.

Haha, it's always so fascinating to see how things are handled differently from one person to another. In any case, thanks for the input!

I understand the principle you are talking about but it was never applied in fighters ( at least USAF and RAF ). The jets don't produce enough turbulence to make a significant difference.

At this point I'm pretty much convinced that the effect seems exaggerated in DCS right now.

I have not thoroughly tried and tested DCS's however one thing that comes to mind is that most servers generally have weather turned off.

In the situation that got me starting this thread, we were testing the effect of wake turbulence on A-10Cs in MP. We had something like a 5 knot crosswind component, lead was downwind of the wingman and with 20 seconds of separation, I (as wingman) still had a very significant wing drop just as the mains left the ground. I had, however, rotated after lead. In any case, the turbulence was apparently still very much there.

The Wake Turbulence effect can be enforced by the mission (not sure if it's also a server setting). In our case, the mission enforced it to "On".

 

Here you can actually see a good representation of how fast it can be displaced by wind.

In this case, the lineup has me wondering why lead was upwind of the wingman. We can see the #2 aircraft get tossed around in lead's exhaust, and #2's engines sputter some fumes as they ingest the used air.

But yeah, with sufficient crosswind, all engine exhaust and wake turbulences should be long gone by the time the second (and third and fourth) aircraft come down the runway.

Must have watched that video some 2 dozen times by today. ;)

I believe engine exhaust aka heatblur is only a visual effect so far and has zero influence on other aircraft.

It's called jetwash, which is a somewhat different effect (albeit similar in its results) than wake turbulance and is currently only implemented for the F-14.

It's called jetwash, which is something different (albeit similar in its results) than wake turbulance and is currently only implemented for the F-14.

I knew I'd heard that term before... ;)

Thanks, and good hint about the Tomcat. First time I sat in it in MP, I suddenly got bumped around a bit when another F-14 turned on the ramp and threw its jetwash at my aircraft. Pretty cool effect. :)

In this case, the lineup has me wondering why lead was upwind of the wingman. We can see the #2 aircraft get tossed around in lead's exhaust, and #2's engines sputter some fumes as they ingest the used air.

Lead aligned left to ensure enough room on runway for correction. 2 get's to watch and angle across runway to help with wind correction. Both know that wake and turbulence will not affect them in those conditions as the wind was so strong any and all conditions would have been blown off runway with that spacing.

Both seemed to be very experienced pilots..

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I don't think DCS wake turbulence is affected by weather--it's probably a scripted effect with intensity and duration hard-programmed into the aircrafts.

I think you are wrong. DCS World environment simulation uses variable dynamics to generate the weather. Temperature (density), Wind direction and strength between layers and even humidity is modeled (that's basically the reason, why track replays are so difficult), the turbulence effect is a total different effect, and what I understood from the video demonstration, the wake turbulence is mostly intiated by the wings and to a lesser degree by the engine exhaust. It feels overmodeled now, for sure as the results are - let's say - "drastically harsh" at the moment.

But usually these new effects are often tweaked for some while in beta, before they are ironed out... :)

huh interesting

I have to try this myself....

at least for the navy I think 10 seconds intervals are normal, Jell-O has mentioned it on couple of occasions on his podcast

I've never experienced any severe wake turbulence taking off in MP after people, sadly I don't do much A-10 2-Ships online, but I wanna try it.

Last time I felt any turbulence was when I drifted by accident behind the tanker's engine exhaust :lol:

Okey, so I setup couple of tests with an AI as a lead.

Did a 10 second interval TO first, into a head wind, didn't feel anything, even caught up to the AI to make sure Wake was On and it was.

Did a second one with 5 seconds interval and oh boy..... oh boy :lol: the difference is huge, at 5 seconds I definitely felt it, my seat felt it too, when my butt cheeks grabbed it.

And a third one with no interval in departure, you can barely feel it if any.

Final test was again a 5 second interval now, but with a 30 knots crosswind, didn't feel any wake

Maybe it’s different behind AI but behind another human-flown Hog, you should still get a pretty good twist in the wake of the preceding jet with even a 20 second interval (which we fly with live ordinance or if we depart In IMC)

In fact, I was -1 in a second element and it felt like I was experiencing a little rough air even 30 seconds behind -2 of the preceding flight. Again, it was a human flown Hog.

We’ve also experienced turbulence on landing when in two mile trail.

Are you sure you are not talking about normal turbulence from the weather ? that can be quite severe as well

Are you sure you are not talking about normal turbulence from the weather ? that can be quite severe as well

I like to set my weather to be somewhat interesting, with natural turbulence at more than 10 (0.1* feet in the ME, whatever that might be in kts or m/s). With that setting, I might get a very little bit of a bumpy ride, but that's completely different from the new wake turbulence effect that tosses aircraft around.

In MP, with a 20 second delay between aircraft on the same runway, wake turbulence currently has a fairly strong and severe effect, where flight safety is not guaranteed. It feels a lot like I imagine light props would experience the wake turbulence of an airliner.