M82Air/CCRP 5 mil frustration

I have a CCRP question. I am doing a A10C training mission using MK82Air in CCRP 5 mil mode. The SPI is set on target and I am able at first to keep the PBRL and ASL aligned to insure the 5 mil pipper passes right over the Solution Cue. But when I get very close to the target the PBL starts twisting and drifting so the release is aborted. I am flying straight and level throughout this process. 3/9 for guided bombs is no problem. But CCRP 5 mil is driving me batty? Any suggestions?

Just a wild guess but are you putting wind info into the laste maybe the wind data changing while you go through the layers effecting it

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Just a wild guess but are you putting wind info into the laste maybe the wind data changing while you go through the layers effecting it

 

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Good thought but there is no wind in the training mission.

Did you try to release it in slick setting( cant remember name of the profile LO something)? Does it happen when you release it like that

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Did you try to release it in slick setting( cant remember name of the profile LO something)? Does it happen when you release it like that

 

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to. In CCRP, 5 mil is the only option for the M82Air.

What you are using is the release consent. What iam saying is the weapon profile in dsms. It makes the bomb drop without using its parachutes. If it doesnt happen when you drop it like a normal mk82 it should mean your problem has something to do with the parachutes.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

What you are using is the release consent. What iam saying is the weapon profile in dsms. It makes the bomb drop without using its parachutes. If it doesnt happen when you drop it like a normal mk82 it should mean your problem has something to do with the parachutes.

 

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Appreciate your help but I am using the CCRP Mode NOT CCIP. And according to the manual CR (or Consent to Release) is ONLY available in CCIP.

"Consent to Release (CR) (3/9 or 5 MIL)

The two CR modes allow you to designate a target much as you would attack it with a CCIP Manual Release attack, and then pull up out of the attack with the target well below the HUD lower field of view. This can be a useful delivery when you want to reduce the time you are in an attack dive and it allows you to start your escape maneuver earlier.

To use a CR mode, you will need to do the following:

1. From IFFCC Test menu, select the CCIP CONSENT OPT, press the DATA rocker on the UFC to select either 3/9 or 5MIL. By default, this will be set to OFF which provides Manual Release. When complete, place the IFFCC switch in the ON position.

2. When you are pitched down more than 3 degrees, a dashed PBIL and reticle will appear on the HUD. The reticle with central pipper will stay clamped to the bottom of the HUD. Maneuver the aircraft to place the pipper over the intended target and then press and HOLD the weapon release button."

Ive decided not use use M82Air weapons since I prefer CCRP which demands accuracy in 5 mil with this bomb (which is the ONLY option)which Im not skilled enough to achieve at the moment.

Fly safe. Moving on....

Ah my bad, i misread it

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

lasvideo, I see what you mean. I approach a 2000' level release from far out and try to keep the pipper on the ASL throughout. This is quite easily until the TTRN interval 10 to 5 seconds at which it shifts suddenly. The ASL shift begins at 10 and ends at 5.

Rudder.

The long-distance ASL (>10s) should show the target, TVV, ASL, and pipper in a vertical stack provided the wings are level, no wind, and the coordination ball is centered.

However if the coordination ball is not centered then the approach will displace the ASL and thus the flight path wrongly away from the eventual correct release point. Right rudder produces left ball and a flight path right of the normal one. The more rudder the more slip and the bigger the ASL offset.

In contrast to the long-distance ASL (>10s) the short-distance ASL (<5s) copes with these conditions very accurately and pipper-on-ASL steering produces good bombing results regardless of slip or bank or whatever. The <5s steering is of high quality.

The difficulty to the pilot comes when the long-distance and short-distance ASL steering are very different. In the interval 5-10s TTRN the two steerings are blended. What may have been a constant heading approach for 10nm+ with pipper locked on ASL will suddenly shift to the real solution requiring last second adjustments.

This is not a Mk-82AIR-specific issue. Mk-82 and presumably all other ballistic bombs show this behavior.

In 2011 there was a similar issue with wind causing a last-second ASL shift. It appears the 2017 module does not suffer this problem, accounting for wind well at all ranges. Instead it is the interplay of bank and yaw relating to coordinated flight causing the long-distance ASL steering to be of poor quality.

Advice is to second-guess the long distance ASL steering and to make all efforts to center the coordination ball with the winds level. In most cases the TVV flight path will pass very nearly vertically over the target. If the flight path is significantly offset laterally it shouldn't be trusted.

As a noob I have to ask.....what is this coordination ball you are referring to? Is it the one under the ADI that indicates slip?

Since I understand about half of your explanation, can you in more basic layman's terms tell me what causes this behavior and then tell me your solution ?

Yes, the slip ball at the bottom of the ADI.

At long distances the ASL is acting like a bank director. If your path is left of solution then the ASL will command a certain amount of right bank. The amount of right bank is achieved by putting pipper on ASL. Bank commanded is proportional to the path error. Normally as the path error disappears the commanded bank aprpoaches wings level. Pipper-on-ASL only indicates that you are on a bank schedule which should eliminate the heading error. Keyword: should.

Unfortunately this will not happen if some slip is present. For a given slip at some point the commanded bank isn't producing any turn at all. Your pipper is on the ASL and you're complying with the commanded bank but your actual flight path is still left solution and not getting more aligned. Continuing in this way means showing up to the target misaligned with the solution.

Very close to release the algorithm switches to a more sophisticated one and the misalignment becomes obvious. This is seen as the ASL moving away from the pipper.

A solution would be to cross check a few things:

TVV passes directly over target or upwind the appropriate amount

Pipper remains on ASL when the wings are exactly level

Slip ball is exactly centered in the instrument

Yes, the slip ball at the bottom of the ADI.

 

At long distances the ASL is acting like a bank director. If your path is left of solution then the ASL will command a certain amount of right bank. The amount of right bank is achieved by putting pipper on ASL. Bank commanded is proportional to the path error. Normally as the path error disappears the commanded bank aprpoaches wings level. Pipper-on-ASL only indicates that you are on a bank schedule which should eliminate the heading error. Keyword: should.

 

Unfortunately this will not happen if some slip is present. For a given slip at some point the commanded bank isn't producing any turn at all. Your pipper is on the ASL and you're complying with the commanded bank but your actual flight path is still left solution and not getting more aligned. Continuing in this way means showing up to the target misaligned with the solution.

 

Very close to release the algorithm switches to a more sophisticated one and the misalignment becomes obvious. This is seen as the ASL moving away from the pipper.

 

A solution would be to cross check a few things:

 

TVV passes directly over target or upwind the appropriate amount

Pipper remains on ASL when the wings are exactly level

Slip ball is exactly centered in the instrument

LOL! while I really do appreciate your feedback .... this is your idea of simplifying things to laymen's terms?

My solution is not to use "dumb" bombs anymore. Hows that for simple? :pilotfly:

Why not try it with CCIP. I get a much better result with this method.

Why not try it with CCIP. I get a much better result with this method.

Good thought. While I dont like the trade off of having to dive close to ground, for the few times I may need to use unguided bombs, it maybe a viable solution.

in layman's terms he is saying you are not flying the plane straight.

slip = not flying straight.. yawing left or right through the air. countered using the rudder. noticed using the ball on the ADI.

remove slip using the pedals/ twist grip. centre the ball....

you need to fly straight to bomb straight.

unfortunately the bomb sight only figure this out half way through. (that you have side slip on..)

it expects you to fly straight too.. and gets perturbed when you don't. and throws a fit.

in layman's terms he is saying you are not flying the plane straight.

 

slip = not flying straight.. yawing left or right through the air. countered using the rudder. noticed using the ball on the ADI.

 

remove slip using the pedals/ twist grip. centre the ball....

 

you need to fly straight to bomb straight.

 

unfortunately the bomb sight only figure this out half way through. (that you have side slip on..)

it expects you to fly straight too.. and gets perturbed when you don't. and throws a fit.

Excellent explanation. Thanks!:thumbup:

in layman's terms he is saying you are not flying the plane straight.

 

slip = not flying straight.. yawing left or right through the air. countered using the rudder. noticed using the ball on the ADI.

 

remove slip using the pedals/ twist grip. centre the ball....

 

you need to fly straight to bomb straight.

 

unfortunately the bomb sight only figure this out half way through. (that you have side slip on..)

it expects you to fly straight too.. and gets perturbed when you don't. and throws a fit.

I tried the same training exercise as before. As it turns out there was no wind and the slip ball was dead center on the ADI when the same screwy things happened in CCRP mode with the ASL drifting and twisting as I flew near the target.

I will see if I find the CCIP CR mode is more to my taste. If not, no more dumb bombs for me ;)

okay :)

well the ball isn't the most accurate instrument in the cockpit :)

why the guy mentions wings.

you have to have the piper on the line and your wings level.

if you have to dip a wing to keep the piper on the line then you are slipping in the direction of the raised wing.

and that little slip wont show on the inaccurate ball :)

so if you have the right wing dipped and the piper is not moving to the right of the line, then you are slipping to the left.

press in right pedal until the piper starts moving to the right and level the wings to keep the piper on the line.

level wings is why its called level bombing.

you can do it in a dive or climb :)

okay :)

 

well the ball isn't the most accurate instrument in the cockpit :)

 

why the guy mentions wings.

 

you have to have the piper on the line and your wings level.

 

if you have to dip a wing to keep the piper on the line then you are slipping in the direction of the raised wing.

and that little slip wont show on the inaccurate ball :)

so if you have the right wing dipped and the piper is not moving to the right of the line, then you are slipping to the left.

press in right pedal until the piper starts moving to the right and level the wings to keep the piper on the line.

 

level wings is why its called level bombing.

you can do it in a dive or climb :)

Thanks! I will give it a shot. :thumbup:

I have a CCRP question. I am doing a A10C training mission using MK82Air in CCRP 5 mil mode. The SPI is set on target and I am able at first to keep the PBRL and ASL aligned to insure the 5 mil pipper passes right over the Solution Cue. But when I get very close to the target the PBL starts twisting and drifting so the release is aborted. I am flying straight and level throughout this process. 3/9 for guided bombs is no problem. But CCRP 5 mil is driving me batty? Any suggestions?

How are you setting the SPI? With HUD or the TGP?

How are you setting the SPI? With HUD or the TGP?

TGP.

I am trying to duplicate what you are seeing. Could tell me more detail? Which mission, specific load out, target, altitude, speed etc.