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A plea to the DCS community: (re-)presentation of women in DCS


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Identity politics in the ED Forums ... I've officially seen it all now. Now that we've all shared this tender moment, can we freaking get back to hyping the Hornet and discussing putting fire and steel on target?

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I don't need no stinkin' GPS! (except for PGMs :D) :pilotfly:

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I have been flying the A10C since 2011 and own almost every module (minus the Viggen, C101, and combined arms). I have never bothered posting on the forum, only using it to read, research, and learn.

 

I am also a private pilot (tailwheel and complex endorsements) working on my instrument. The fact is that we are very much here. To assume that that girls don't fly flight sims is merely that, an assumption. My ten year old daughter and I regularly fly the L39C together and we both just bought the Hornet. She is a total nut for the Blue Angels and cannot wait to have her own!

 

Maybe listen to liveATC sometime and realize just how many female pilots and controllers there are in the real world.

 

Personally, not having female voices has never bothered me as I rarely use the DCS controllers. Once they look into reworking the ATC, I do think it would be nice if the pilot could select to have either a male or female voice and throw in a few random voices (a woman or two) for the controllers.

 

I have never had an issue with the pilot bodies. I am totally fine looking down and seeing gloved hands on the controls and boots on the pedals.

 

Happy Flying! ;) :P :pilotfly:

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Who's reeling? I don't object to female voices. I object to the implication ED doesn't have them because 'sexism'.

 

I do dispute whether a female pilot in full gear and helmet would be sufficiently different from a male pilot in full gear to warrant a separate model. Physically slightly smaller perhaps? I don't think it would be noticeably different unless the model's flightsuit is unzipped.

 

Forum and open discussion works both ways, just because OP is female crying foul doesn't change anything. Some parts I agree with (additional customisation is always welcome), some parts I think are frivolous (different 3d models of questionable difference), some parts I disagree with and offered suggestions (sexism and inteenet behaviors)

 

-edit

And I object to some of the illpgical white knighting, as well as some of the illogical dickery

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Uh... I don't know. What a strange, a bit of troublemaker-style post from EA. Mixed feelings from me about it. It's not about asking for being acknowledged, it's about the way she goes about it.

 

There's so much "first world problem'ism" and upsetting "SJW'ism" in OP, with blatant political correctness vibe in its cancer form all around. If that wasn't enough, dictating people how they should begin their posts and vids takes the cake...

 

I'm just not a fan of all people who demand to be treated more special than others because of being white/black/pink/man/woman/unisex/whatever.

 

Maybe a good idea behind OP, but not-so-great execution.

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Why all the reeling Zhukov, MurderOne? I mean, if DCS changes to having pilot models and voices for a bunch of different kinds of people, it would not change your gameplay one little bit.

 

Also, MurderOne, your comment about escaping, escapes me. You want to escape from being civil to other people? Do you think this is some kind of Men's Right's Activist group or something? You may be in the wrong place.

 

Wait, I make one post, and it's "all the reeling"? Hey, go ahead, add female voices, add female pilot models (which, fit for duty, full flight kit, will be identical regardless), I do not care. What's detracting, to me, is reading a thread about the implementation of a particular weapon, or a bug about a flight system, or a question of whether the proper aoa is implemented, and "females need included" pops into it. No, that's not a direct reference, it's a generalization. We have a wish list for features, it doesn't need to be everywhere you look. Personally I'm all for it. But do tell, what's really the difference between these two pilots?

Pilot2.thumb.jpg.7faac25559c392e2b36b3c7c6e426321.jpg

pilot1.thumb.jpg.3e86933f752a436af3bc8968fb008ad7.jpg

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Who's reeling? I don't object to female voices. I object to the implication ED doesn't have them because 'sexism'.

 

I do dispute whether a female pilot in full gear and helmet would be sufficiently different from a male pilot in full gear to warrant a separate model. Physically slightly smaller perhaps? I don't think it would be noticeably different unless the model's flightsuit is unzipped.

 

Forum and open discussion works both ways, just because OP is female crying foul doesn't change anything. Some parts I agree with (additional customisation is always welcome), some parts I think are frivolous (different 3d models of questionable difference), some parts I disagree with and offered suggestions (sexism and inteenet behaviors)

 

-edit

And I object to some of the illpgical white knighting, as well as some of the illogical dickery

 

ED doesn't have them because <its a male game>. This is how sexism works all over the place. It could be active discrimination (women are not allowed to play), seemingly harmless comments (you fight like a girl) or just making them unseen (no female pilot voices). Then you have people standing up for ED saying they may not have enough resources. They have enough resources to make dozens of almost identical gray skins for the Hornet, so the resource theory is wrong. They can do it, but nobody asked them to, people are now asking them to. You have no reason to object to it.

 

Also, telling people to 'get over it, toughen up' is not a solution, you should be telling other guys (because guys tend to listen to guys see "sexism") to behave better. That would make a small difference.

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It's awesome to see that there are more lady simmers here then I thought! I totally support this thread. Women should not be fearful to reveal that are here or anywhere for that matter. We're way past that in society aren't we? Ladies, I welcome you and am glad you are here. If there are more of you out there that love this sim too, stand up and be counted!!

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I agree that there should be a statistically reasonable amount of female voiceovers.

I agree that something like pilot model would be nice, again statistically reasonable to reflect rl composition.

 

For starting youtube videos, would ofc be more inclusive to start it with something explicitly gender inclusive, but tbh I did go and ask my youtube statistics its literally listing 100% male viewership over 15k views or so. I know there are the every now and then 1-2% female viewers turning up in the statistics on some videos. So yeah. Its an idealistic and better decision to be inclusive. But I wouldnt mind it to much as the 1% minority if someone fails to be explicitly inclusive.

 

I share the annoyance towards the reactions of some wannabe hotshot pilots though. :D

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*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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War game has mostly male characters... yeah, super surprising. I never implied resources were an issue, I agree that is incorrect. I said it is low priority in the face of more important things. Do you want then to time to voice packs, or fix the cockpit glass? They can do both, but I really give no damns about voice packs male or female when half the planes are unusable.

 

I don't care about Hornet skins either, half the planes are unusable. Difference is skins are and always have been changeable, with UI provided for that. Voices and pilot models are not, therefore would require somebody rewrite the UI to add the capability, then *plot twist* modify every aircraft to have variable pilot models and make sure they fit in the cockpit properly. Many aircraft only have crude external pilots anyway with no in cockpit body. In conclusion, it will require more than just diverting somebody to whip up a 3d model and some voicepacks, therefore, yeah, it's boils down to their priorities.

 

This should be, and now is, in the wishlist, not community news as a 'Plea for Recognition'. OP could have requested a voice pack, in which case I probably would have passed it by. Instead, she made an attention seeking thread. Well, she's got attention, and specifically her approach irritated me because I think it was a bullshit move.

 

Saying it's a *air quotes* male game *air quotes* is also a bullshit move, Sir Knight

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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Meh, female ATC at my old haunt; EGHH Hurn. Business like and proper, bring it on.

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Hello everyone,

 

This is a topic that is generally avoided it seems, and if brought up, rediculed or even deleted by moderators.

 

 

Proof?

 

 

Woman are indeed a minority in military aviation, virtual or otherwise, but that doesn't mean when someone feels the need to point out a particular situation where our presence is underexposed, it should be branded "off-topic", moved to a distant dark corner of the forum or even deleted altogether because "some do not handle these kinds off (sic) discussions well".

 

 

If you are not talking about the topic and instead are talking about your gender it is off topic, the same way if someone started talking about anything else that isn't related. This is not a gender issue, it's the rules of this forum.

 

 

Sadly, a quote from forum user and part of the ED Tester Team, @Weta43, can't be repeated here since the original post has been deleted, but it comes down to this:

"You mean to say all this annoying woman talk should be moved to a different part of the forum in order not to disrupt men having a serious conversation? Seriously?"

This sums it up nicely.

 

 

This seems like a pretty asshole thing to say, but since we don't have the original context or post I can't pass judgement either way.

 

As for under-representation that's probably because less women are interested in flying combat simulators. You can get DCS and play it without any contact with another human being so I don't see why this is an issue.

 

 

Back to DCS then. This particular topic seems to have gained wide-ranged support from the community, but when specific points are brought up in existing threads, the responses are less kind.

 

 

It seems in this thread like 95% are supportive with a few assholes that aren't, but there are assholes on every type of topic whether it comes to how the gazelle flies or how many rivets a plane has.

 

 

Ranging from highly immature (this is just one of many examples I have come accross)

 

 

This is a joke in poor taste, but a joke non the less. The real reason is likely the extra effort it is to make an entire new player model and have ED implement the option to switch.

 

 

to simply being tossed aside as "irrelevant" and deleted as "off-topic". Men openly ask "what does gender have to do with DCS", "what does gender have to do with in-flight refuelling" in order to deligitimise questions being raised about under-representation

 

 

They are irrelevant when they are not about the topic in the thread. The in-flight refueling one I saw. Some guy made a creepy comment about women and DCS then you spoke up saying women exist in DCS and then people were saying it was off topic, no surprise given the thread was about mid air refueling techniques in the F/A-18C.

 

 

- There is no option to have a female voice for basic in-game communications such as asking for ground power, requesting ATC for taxi clearance, ... (as opposed to male English, male Russian and recently even male Chinese/Mandarin);

- There are no female pilot models to use in cockpits;

- There is a lack of female ATC responders when using English as communication language (the Russian ATC does have more women);

- ...

 

 

To preface this, I'd like all these things in DCS, controllers should be male and female and your pilot should be what you choose.

 

However this is not the case likely due to prioritising resources. Since like 95% of the base is male it's not a wise business decision to hire voice actors and redo all the voices. Furthermore the voices are like 7 years old anyway so they could do with an update, this isn't intentional just prioritising.

 

The pilot models obviously fall under something similar to the voice as a priorities dictate they finish more pressing issues like bugs and extra units that directly add to the combat. The SA2 for example is something that will add to gameplay, whereas a female pilot model is more akin to a skin for an aircraft and less relevent (although still required imo).

 

This is just like any other feature request it will be put on the list and implemented when the devs get round to it. Patience is the key with this game.

 

 

What I am asking for is not to be tossed aside as irrelevant.

 

 

How are women treated any differently, ie tossed aside as irrelevant?

 

 

To people starting posts (both regular forum users such as myself, and developers) and youtube-videos, please don't start of exlusively with "Hi gentlemen", "hello gents", or "Welcome to the Hornet, gentlemen". There are alternatives such as "ladies and gents" or simply "Hello people" or "Hey everyone".

 

 

The majority of the DCS community is male this is all this means. These aren't said to exclude you. I call unironically call my girl friends as boy and they don't care. It's just a word used to say hello. Don't look for exclusion where there isn't any.

 

 

There are multiple women on this forum aside from myself, who don't speak up and stay "in the closet". I wonder why...

 

 

This is because no one cares what is between your legs. People have discussions based on what they say not what they look like what the colour of their skin or what genitals they have. By all means say you are a women but don't expect anything more than "so...?".

 

 

The tactics used on this forum are in line with so called "hysteria" in the 18th/19th century

 

 

This is hyperbolic at best.

 

 

and frankly that should change: the diversity of society is something to be recognised and even cherished: it improves everyone's lives. Ad-hominem attacks don't help anyone, quite the opposite.

 

 

Diversity is great, I want as many people as possible playing DCS. However when it is a discussion about mid-air refuelling then it is entirely irrelevant, what someone's gender race or anything else is.

 

 

I speak up here with the best possible intentions, in order to improve DCS as a product, and society in general. :thumbup:

 

 

Thanks for the post I think it has inspired an interesting discussion.

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Nice to see so many fulfilling their virtue signalling requirements for the day. This thread is just another one to add to the long list created by the same dude in order to bait people into identity politics. It's sad that so many people have taken the bait...

 

That being said let me address why this is a BS discussion from the get go. Women make up 5.9% of the pilots of the USAF. Now you might say this figure constitutes some sort of representation. Okay let's take that and work with it. Should that be your argument I want to see the following representation addressed;

 

Roughly 15% of the USAF is black - why is there not more black pilots? Is DCS racist?

 

There is a substantial minority of Afro-Russians in the Russian Army - why is there not more of them in DCS? Is DCS again racist?

 

About 10-15% of the USAF is left handed - why is there not more left handed pilots? Is DCS biased?

 

Roughly 5% of the USAF are homosexuals - why are there no homosexuals in DCS? Is DCS homophobic?

 

A minority of USAF pilots wear glasses - why are they not more pilots with glasses in DCS? Is DCS biased against this too?

 

About 0.056% of USAF pilots have mental health conditions - Why are these not represented in DCS? Is DCS part of the stigma towards mental health?

 

The answer to all of these is no. DCS is designed to represent weapons of war, not the demographics of society.

 

If you're looking for a game that prioritizes your identity politics over everything else then go play something else.


Edited by al531246
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Once again, some woman who felt offended because of alleged "sexism". What does DCS have to do with gender in the first place? It's a computer software not a modelling agency. Women can download, install and use it just as easily as men can.

 

I am all for gender equality but nowadays some people just go overboard with it and find ways to complain even in areas where things are fine.

 

Yes, the community here is made up of a vast majority of men but it's the same thing IRL. I know this from talking to both civil and military pilots (ratio is around 9:1).

 

If more women were interested in aviation they would certainly be better represented in DCS as well. That's it. How are men responsible for this?

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This is the kind of thing she's asking to not happen. This is exclusion. You are fighting against something for no reason. DCS is a game. It needs to be fun for players. A lot of players (especially here) like to role play and they find it more immersive (big point here) if they can tailor their in-game character the way they want them. Also, you're being an a-hole, lets face it.

 

"Left handed pilots" - Are you really stupid or just pretending to be?

 

I don't know, I think he has a point.

 

Southpaws deserve to be punished for being so very wrong.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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People are seriously overreacting here...it's a pretty simple and reasonable request.

 

I do agree that a female pilot model probably wouldn't look all that different to a male one with all the gear, but doesn't that just mean it would be easier to model?

And as long as it's a choice and not forced on you, what's the problem?

 

Now speaking of female ATC, I see absolutely no reason why not...hell, it would generally be cool to have new and better ATC, even with different voice actors so it's not the same dude every time.

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If this is just about more female ATC voices and not to propagate your political agenda, why the gender studies rant and not just a simple request? :huh:

 

 

Because then she wouldn't have gone viral with a big ''us against them'' thread full of people reaffirming her belief system and other people persecuting her because she's an outspoken female. It can't be we agree with the notion but think her method is bs, we're just chauvinist pigs, because she's a woman and as you can see from many comments here, that's what disagreeing with her automatically makes you.

 

edit

Sinistrophobia.... interesting. My new word of the day.


Edited by zhukov032186
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If this really is just about more female ATC voices and not about propagating your political agenda, why the gender studies rant and not just a simple request? :huh:

Because it isn't just about female voices and pilot models as she clearly stated...

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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If more women were interested in aviation they would certainly be better represented in DCS as well. That's it. How are men responsible for this?

 

Here:

 

-> Once again, some woman who felt offended...

-> I am all for gender equality but ...

-> Oh no, the SJW's have found us, there goes the neighborhood.

-> If you're looking for a game that prioritizes your identity politics over everything else then go play something else.

->

 

 

You sir, are the reason.

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Here:

 

-> Once again, some woman who felt offended...

-> I am all for gender equality but ...

-> Oh no, the SJW's have found us, there goes the neighborhood.

-> If you're looking for a game that prioritizes your identity politics over everything else then go play something else.

->

 

 

You sir, are the reason.

 

The guy you replied to is a bit of a sausage, but anyone can download and play DCS without having to interact with a single person. He is hardly a barrier to most people.

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For those who say it’s “genderizing” to ask for female voice(s), female pilot bodies, etc...

 

Imagine if a company made an incredibly realistic and entertaining flight sim, but all voices and models were female. Would you buy it? Would you go online and fly with others? There’d be no nudity nor unprotective clothing/armor, just female characters.

 

I could see most* men playing it once or twice, but being forced to use female characters would irk your butts, and there’d be a constant call for male bodies and voices.

 

That’s how we feel.

 

And for the “Immaturity? Well, boys will be boys...” Rude and uncivil behaviors should never be excused, except IRL in the trenches while a bayonet attack is going on.

 

 

*There will always be exceptions.

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Here:

 

-> Once again, some woman who felt offended...

-> I am all for gender equality but ...

-> Oh no, the SJW's have found us, there goes the neighborhood.

-> If you're looking for a game that prioritizes your identity politics over everything else then go play something else.

->

 

 

You sir, are the reason.

 

Bakgat SJW, amandla!

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