Proper procedure for timing racetracks

5.6 in level flight provides max endurance speed (at any acft.-weight and altitude). Maintain that speed during turns as well. Minor deviations doesn't matter.

Edit: By the way - flying 4.2 AoA provides max range cruise speed.

-> page 332, chapter III-7-26, "7.2.8 Cruise" in the NATOPS

If you open the ADI page on the mfd, you have a turn indicator at the bottom, when the lower rectangle is in between the top rectangle it is a 2min for 180° turn, if it is bellow the right most or left most rectangle it is a 1min for 180° turn. Very useful !

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Ha! I used a method that would take an hour to type up, but it entails assuming four miles per minute, and two minute turns at each end of the racetrack.

You speed up or slow down/play your turn to sync up to an "even DME", that puts you at a DME from your holding fix that is divisible by a minute of flight time, which is assumed to be four miles at Max Conserve TAS of 240 knots, or at turn entry or exit. See what I mean?

A senior pilot briefed me on the technique, and I never had difficulty making my time. You had to fudge a little for winds aloft vs the ship's movement. Get into marshal early, play the DME vs time as you arrive, and continue while in the pattern. The goal is to hit the push fix at an even number, divisible by four, six, eight, minutes etc prior to your push time, in order to simplify things. You just turn back as necessary, assuming four miles per minute and a two minute (half standard rate, you are too fast for SRT) turn at each end.

And yes, you were expected to push on time at the right place. Ten seconds off was unacceptable.

Not something that I am interested in suffering through in a combat sim again. Case III wasn't fun.

Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

I look forward to you explaining how to use the MC to leave the hold at an assigned time.

Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

Though you cant assign a Velocity and track to a Waypoint :)

Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

Case II/III holding patterns are at specific distances from the carrier. You won't know which altitude/distance/location you will be assigned. Additionally, carrier moves. Meaning those holdings patterns are also moving. Waypoints are not useful in this situation.

I also prefer not having to make individual missions for every single scenario I want to fly. Sandbox missions without waypoints allows me more freedom to practice what I want to practice.

... Additionally, carrier moves. Meaning those holdings patterns are also moving. Waypoints are not useful in this situation...

Well, even 20, 25 years ago it wouldn't be that hard to come up with a "display" showing the pilot graphically where he was on SA page or something. Showing moving waypoints would not be a problem provided all shipborne equipment was up and running. These days... that's almost a given that systems were modernized. Heck... I'm pretty sure there might be an auto pilot mode that would guide the jet all the way from "de-lousing" by red crown to the deck but who wants to let autopilot do the flying... only in emergency, maybe :unsure: Then there's EMCON from time to time... is there in case III? Either way back to basics.

And do we have any DCS modules with moving waypoints currently?

And do we have any DCS modules with moving waypoints currently?

No... I was just thinking out loud.

Case II/III holding patterns are at specific distances from the carrier. You won't know which altitude/distance/location you will be assigned. Additionally, carrier moves. Meaning those holdings patterns are also moving. Waypoints are not useful in this situation.

 

I also prefer not having to make individual missions for every single scenario I want to fly. Sandbox missions without waypoints allows me more freedom to practice what I want to practice.

P-816 says the Case II/III patterns are on the 180 radial from the carrier, or at least within 30 degrees of either side of the 180. Not sure how useful the offsets would be in that case. I haven't tried them in either the Harrier or the Hornet yet.

Though you cant assign a Velocity and track to a Waypoint :)

You can set a desired TOT though. But the hold fix is defined by TACAN and setting an INS point would be counter productive. It can be helpful in a tactical hold though, not on every lap but on the last one.

As Victory suggests there are rule of thumb, mental math methods for syncing to pushing from a fix. Fleet pilots have about a PhD's worth of aviation knowledge. This kind of figuring is both not at all too complicated and something that is given significant thought out of seat. It's also a transferable skill to tactical uses of timed holds. When there are 20-30 airplanes on a mission with integrated plans that are on the 10 second time scale of precision this is the kind of thing you do.

Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

Does it compute time to a moving TACAN radial/DME fix?

Ok, P-816 says:

"aircraft must arrive at the holding fix on airspeed (250 kts) and ready to commence the approach at the Expected Approach Time (EAT) plus or minus 10 seconds."

 

So, it's not 1 second. 20 seconds window is easy target.

No, you need to be as close to your time at the fix as possible.

If your interval is ten late, you are ten early at the wrong speed, he’ll still be in the gear when you are in the groove, and you’ll get waved off. The ship’s CATCC knows exactly who hit their time and who did not.

Also, if you push doing 550 KIAS or 180 KIAS, you’ll screw it up for everyone as well. All CATCC can do is delay or expedite your dirty up. There is a jet one minute behind you.

So, back to standard rate turns. I just tried flying one at 4,000 feet with the ADI in the DDI, using the boxes to fly standard rate. You need to fly at 180kts or less to do it with 30° AoB or less.

No. There is approach control that can monitor and manipulate spacings.

 

P-816 manual says ±10 seconds. What's your source?

365 traps on five different Carriers.

Wags's video had a timed turn begin 6:10 and end 7:39. Essentially it's a 90 second three quarters rate turn. If you plug the TAS and bank angle demonstrated into a calculator you get very near 2dps. I'm sure if desired half rate turns with one minute legs would also be acceptable.

I've looked in more detail and I can't find the protected airspace dimensions for the CV marshal hold. They just say "6 minute pattern". So I assume that this allows for the fastest airplane at the highest ground speed and 30 AOB turns with some margin to determine needed size. Civil templates for 230 knot 10,000' give "size 10" template which is about 30nm total length. The normal pattern should fit in the middle half of that comfortably. Assuming 300 KTAS and 90 second elements the total pattern is 12.3 x 2.4nm.

This concept of timed approach departure from hold is a thing in the civilian world which is more easily referenced and pattern time is the maximum allowable so all adjustments would be 6 minutes or less. And it's expected to maintain a turn rate appropriate for a bank angle of 30 or SR whichever is less. Whipping around significantly faster than SR isn't an acceptable long term strategy.

Best strategy I can come up with is:

1. Manage initial arrival to match 6 minute pace if able.

2. Adjust patterns in range 3-6 minutes early to sync pace.

3. Ensure final pattern is close but no more than 6 minutes.

The +-10s window is worth examining. You won't get minute-spaced departures from the same marshal level, your wingman even at SR 360 will take 2 minutes to pass the fix again or the flight is split into different levels. If the follow on passage is from the next higher level even a 40 second interval is, marginally, acceptable due to the extra mile initial spacing (300 knots, 1nm, +12 seconds). If follow on passage is from a nearer level time and lateral separation margin are sharply reduced. Not much is said if 1 minute separation from far to near marshal is acceptable, probably not.

365 traps on five different Carriers.

Appeal to authority.

 

You are not source.

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Good grief ladies, you’ve got a mission computer that will tell you exactly when you’ll hit any waypoint. Use it.

Let them talk. They are always complicating things. I try not to comment anymore and just read for the lol’s. Fly the hold at the published speed and use your eyeballs and common sense to exit in a 20 second window. Not trying to be rude but somehow the book readers and pro simmers seem to know better ways.

Let them talk. They are always complicating things. I try not to comment anymore and just read for the lol’s. Fly the hold at the published speed and use your eyeballs and common sense to exit in a 20 second window. Not trying to be rude but somehow the book readers and pro simmers seem to know better ways.

I wish you would stop commenting. All you seem to do is patronise people for not understanding 'simple' topics, then fail miserably at providing any kind of meaningful explination.

I guess it's good to have an idea to hit the time correct. These pilots on airwarriors.com are talking about how they could see the burners on in the stack to hit the push time.

www.airwarriors.com

Quotes

"I used to see the jets with burner on at night, trying to hit their marshal time when late. If I had had a burner, would have seen mine quite a bit."

"And you do whateva it takes to push on time at your holding fix."

"Pick a radial typically no less than 30 degrees off final bearing (but can be more depending on location...the gulf). Marshall stack starts at 6k. Add 15 to get your DME. We hold in left hand turns. Leg length is your call, you need to be inbound at the fix as you commence on time at 250 kts."

Interesting

30 degrees off final bearing (but can be more depending on location...the gulf.

.

I wish you would stop commenting. All you seem to do is patronise people for not understanding 'simple' topics, then fail miserably at providing any kind of meaningful explination.

This. I recently hopped back into the forums and there are a bunch of posts where BS Sniper is the first or second response totally shitting on the OP's for posting such "stupid" questions. It's really tedious and he needs to be called out for it.

Fly the hold at the published speed and use your eyeballs and common sense to exit in a 20 second window.

You definitely shouldn't compare sloppy airline type flying with precise military ops.

You definitely shouldn't compare sloppy airline type flying with precise military ops.

Yes,

A large conga line at night with 1 minute spacing:cry: Landing around every 60 sec's and ATC allowing for bolters in the line. mmm sounds a bit stressful after a mission for however long, then coming back into that. I will have to setup a mission and have that YouTube ATC recording playing in the background, this will be great (Sort of LOL) when the ATC/AI gets sorted out for this.