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[CORRECT AS IS] SAM mode support FOX3


Papa Saubär

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Hello gentlemen,

 

I have noticed for a long time that something is wrong with the SAM mode.

 

So I decided to start a small test. The red guy used only the SAM mode to fire FOX3 at and below Rmax and started cranks. The blue guy used the TWS mode to fire FOX3 at and below Rmax and started cranks. Both guys hold the "lock" (SAM and TWS).

 

 

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I figured out that the FOX3 missile get support information and change their flight path (before PITBULL).

 

I am sure that was not your intention, but please check this problem. Thanks :thumbup:

 

 

 

P.S.: I uploaded the trackfile on OneDrive, please look at the last match, to check the issue.

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Attcq6zW0_Fbi8xPNnFU0dK8oxPCsg?e=KPsfXZ

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I hope I'm interpreting correctly what you wrote, but if your point is that SAM mode should not support the AIM-120, I'm sorry, it is exactly what it should do. It's even in the manual.

 

That's true, mate

 

"An AIM-120 AMRAAM will guide on the bugged target even without an STT lock."

 

 

 

Maybe I have to do more test, but I didn't see this point (from the manual)

 

"TWS, when combined with the AIM-120, provides a powerful ability to engage multiple targets quickly.

Nevertheless, the target tracking reliability is less than that of SAM and even more so than STT."

 

 

 

Otherwise I can of course be wrong ... then I'm sorry


Edited by Papa Saubär
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  • ED Team
also, missile logic is flawed. they are pitbull off the rail. it's an ED thing

 

Incorrect,

 

They do not go bitbull from the rail.

 

Please see the example track, fired from behind friendlies, if it was pitbull they would go for the closest target.

 

In the track you will see 3 active missile's guided to enemy targets through friendlies.

 

Thanks

A120 Active Test-1.trk

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Yes,

 

It is frustrating to keep reading people writing, "it is active off the rail," when in fact it is not. The DCS AIM-120 goes "active" at 15km from the target. If you snip the wire, it seems to keep tracking to its last mid-course update point, and then still goes "active" at 15km from the target (how it knows that, i'm not sure -- I would think it should switch to HPRF as soon as the wire is snipped).

 

Are we supposed to be getting a MPRF mode for the 120 at some point? That would be nice. I'm sure it's difficult to figure out where those ranges should be to switch over from one to the other.

Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

https://v65th.wordpress.com/

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The other thing I will say.... As soon as you fire a AMRAAM from a STT lock, the target gets a missile launch warning on their RWR. That can't be right. It should just be a STT indication until the missile goes active at 15km. At 15km, they also get a M symbol populate on the RWR, in addition to the missile launch warning that they have had since launch.

Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

https://v65th.wordpress.com/

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Do you mean the "M"-Symbol on the RWR as missile warning? This does not happen to my experience. Often enough I (F16) got engaged by a hornet which launched an AMRAAM in STT, which gave me an STT warning on the RWR but no Missile symbol.

 

SAM mode should support an AMRAAM, but the tracks made by a SAM lock seem not as reliable as tracks from a TWS lock. I lost SAM-locks more often than TWS locks due to the target doing hard maneuvers...Maybe its because a target can easily escape a 10° cone from the SAM mode as the radar is scanning around the target than the 30° cone from TWS?

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Badlego,

 

In a viper v viper engagement (human controlled jets), if the bandit targets you in STT, you will get the "Missile Launch" warning button flashing as soon as they shoot their fox-3. Once the missile goes active, then you get the "M" on the RWR scope.

 

It sounds like your experience of how it is to get shot by an AMRAAM from a hornet is correct. Being shot by another viper is not.

 

You can also test this against the AI with Tacview. If you shoot AI from STT lock, they will notch and chaff as soon as you shoot (even if you had them STT for 20 miles previous). So AI is also getting the "Missile Launch" warning. However, if you shoot from SAM mode, they don't react until the missile goes active (15km from them).

Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

https://v65th.wordpress.com/

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I lost SAM-locks more often than TWS locks due to the target doing hard maneuvers...Maybe its because a target can easily escape a 10° cone from the SAM mode as the radar is scanning around the target than the 30° cone from TWS?

 

It's because of the scan logic of the radar.

In SAM the radar will visit the bugged target at intervals but won't center the elevation on said target, and further more the elevation is now locked (which I think it shouldn't be) to whatever it was when you transitioned to SAM. In TWS the radar will center both elevation and azimuth on your bugged target, hence the bandit will have a harder time escaping.

 

Someone said somewhere on here that SAM features were not finished yet.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The other thing I will say.... As soon as you fire a AMRAAM from a STT lock, the target gets a missile launch warning on their RWR. That can't be right. It should just be a STT indication until the missile goes active at 15km. At 15km, they also get a M symbol populate on the RWR, in addition to the missile launch warning that they have had since launch.

 

This is a tricky problem since we dont know the logic within RWRs.

 

The possibilities include:

 

 

 

1. Trigger launch alert only when missile seeker or illumination is detected.

 

Has a low false alarm rate, but prevents any detection of a FOX 3 prior to Pitbull, limiting the time to warn.

 

 

 

2. Trigger launch alert only when mid-course guidance/illumination is detected.

 

Provides early warning to the pilot, but has a high false alarm rate since missiles fired at people other than you will still trigger the launch warning.

 

 

 

3. Trigger launch alert only when both mid-course guidance(or illumination) and radar tracking are detected (ie a "lock on") and coming from approximately the same direction.

 

A balanced approach that allows early warning and a low false alarm rate. The only weakness it has is against TWS launches, since the RWR doesn't know its being tracked. But a Fox 3 fired in STT would be detected with this logic.

 

 

 

 

I prefer #3. But Whatever ED does, I just hope they stay consistent among the modules.


Edited by Beamscanner
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Incorrect,

 

They do not go bitbull from the rail.

 

Please see the example track, fired from behind friendlies, if it was pitbull they would go for the closest target.

 

In the track you will see 3 active missile's guided to enemy targets through friendlies.

 

Thanks

 

thanks. good to know :thumbup:

Action After Contemplation

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