Some Basic Questions from a Beginner

I have a few newbie questions:

I currently have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and thinking of upgrading to something better now that I have a system that can run DCS well at 1650x1050 with everything cranked up to ultra.

I'm looking at the Saitek X52 and Thrustmaster T-Flight. There is a significant price difference. Does the Saitek warrant the extra cost?

The x56 looks nice , but that pretty pricey.

Rudder pedals. Are they necessary? Do modern jets still have rudder pedals? I though some jets like the F-16 did away with them. I do see the Thrustmaster TFRP that are $89. I've seem even more expensive ones that are in the $400 to 500 range, but can't see spending that much.

I have FCS, A-10 and P-51 as well as Combined Arms and the Nevada module. I don't have much experience and a whole lot of time. I can get off the ground and fly around, but not much else. Landing usually results in a damaged if not completely wrecked plane at the moment.

I also have Rise of Flight installed.

Online play-how is that and considering I have little experience is that any fun or will it be an exercise in frustration. Can you just be a spectator?

Are there some links that can explain all of this in more detail?

Pick one aircraft and learn how to fly it. You can learn everything you need to know by watching YouTube videos. After you can cold start, take off, navigate and land move to the next step. That's what I did.

Any joy stick and throttle will work in the beginning but down the line when you get better at flying you are going to want a better stick. I now have a Thrustmaster Warthog stick and it's great.

Rudder pedals are unnecessary. That money would be better spent on trackir or saved unless you're interested in helos, at that point you'd need at least a twist yaw and, far better, pedals. F-16 has rudder pedals, easiest way to control yaw and when taxiing. WW2 planes may benefit from pedals more I hear but I can't say 'coz I don't fly junk.

I had the T-Flight hotas for over a year and it was excellent for it's price for FC3 aircraft, I drew the line at A10 though due to the lack of buttons. Some sicko called Titanfire on 104th has programmed near everything onto that stick tho for A10 so maybe it's ok. Current X52 version is quite well known for not being very good/durable, never had one myself.

Online play, unless it's private group coop, is mostly airquake, or formation flight stuff on disgusting pacifist servers. Airquake was fun for a while though, from the very beginning too. Squadrons or some friendly wingmen increase realism.

I have a few newbie questions:

 

I currently have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and thinking of upgrading to something better now that I have a system that can run DCS well at 1650x1050 with everything cranked up to ultra.

 

I'm looking at the Saitek X52 and Thrustmaster T-Flight. There is a significant price difference. Does the Saitek warrant the extra cost?

 

The x56 looks nice , but that pretty pricey.

 

Rudder pedals. Are they necessary? Do modern jets still have rudder pedals? I though some jets like the F-16 did away with them. I do see the Thrustmaster TFRP that are $89. I've seem even more expensive ones that are in the $400 to 500 range, but can't see spending that much.

 

I have FCS, A-10 and P-51 as well as Combined Arms and the Nevada module. I don't have much experience and a whole lot of time. I can get off the ground and fly around, but not much else. Landing usually results in a damaged if not completely wrecked plane at the moment.

 

I also have Rise of Flight installed.

 

Online play-how is that and considering I have little experience is that any fun or will it be an exercise in frustration. Can you just be a spectator?

 

Are there some links that can explain all of this in more detail?

A stick like the X-56, the X-55 or the Warthog HOTAS is worth it if you have the disposable income for it. If you look at an image of a real jetfighter stick you'll see the layouts are similair. Many modern jets that are simulated like A-10C, the upcoming F/A-18 and the F-16 in other popular simulators follow something called the HOTAS principle. HOTAS meaning hands on throttle and stick. The buttons on the stick and throttle don't just do one thing. They select avionics the pilot is interested in, and the functions of the other buttons is then changed in order to manipulate said avionics. This allows a pilot to operate roughly over half of the necesary flying equipment, and nearly 100% of the avionics necesary for combat without ever letting go of his controls.

An A-10C pilot with such a stick can operate the navigation system, work the targetting pod or maverick. Designate targets for weapons or others. Command the laser. Change the selected countermeasure program. Activate or deactivate said countermeasure program. Activate or deactivate jammers, even aim the AIM-9 Heatseeking missile seekerhead around to steer it towards a threat or target, and to many other things to list. All this without as much as lifting a single finger of his controls. The question to you is, do you want to simulate this as well with expensive pieces of hardware, or memorise the keyboard controls for these actions.

Modern jets, even the F-16 you mentioned, still have rudder pedals. You still need them to steer when on the ground. They're also useful for finetuning during a landing aproach or when refueling and some other cases. During normal turns, the rudder is usually worked by the FBW computer (fly-by-wire, F-16) or something like the CAS (Controls augmentation system, F-15). Real jets still rely on toebrakes in order to brake on the landing roll and taxi. By having a toebrake on each pedal the pilot can apply differential braking. This allows him to steer when on the ground or when landing and turn the aircraft in a desired direction without applying rudder or working the nosewheel.

Rudder pedals are pretty much required if you ever want to get one of the helicopter modules, only the Ka-50 is decent, but not perfect, without them.

I would definitely get rudder pedals, and if you want to fly helos it's a definit must. Yes modern jets still have rudder pedals. I don't think you need to spend more than 100$ on them tho. I would however not cheap out on your HOTAS. I have had tons of cheap hotas in the past (logitech, saitek etc) and after getting my thrustmaster warthog I felt bad about how much I have been missing out. Sure the warthog is very expensive but it is a serious tool that will last and it is vastly superior to most products on the market. My saitek x52 only lasted about 2 years, and my friends x55 has buttons not working after only a few weeks of use. And I know numerous guys in my virtual squadron who've had problem with saitek. I would stay away from them.

And for the learning to fly part of your question, I'd suggest joining a club / virtual squadron. Most of those units have people, often with real life experience, willing to give you a tremendous amount of time to get you where you want to be in terms of virtual flying. Try to find one in your time zone and I am sure people will be more than happy to give you a hand. If you can, I'd avoid those that are too focused on their little rank structure and all that jazz; find those that have knowledgeable but humble people.

For example, my unit (5th Virtual Wing of Canada) usually fly on Mondays and Wednesdays night. Mondays are usually devoted for training and Wednesday for events. On training night, different flights on different aircraft take off and try to accomplish different training objectives. on Wednesday we try to run a mission made by the community or we come up with our own scenarios. On some occasion, we partake in bigger events involving other squadrons. Virtual Squadrons often form partnership between each other.

New people like you often come up to us and they usually have for objective to be able to lead a flight on a Wednesday or to be able to take part in our next big event with another squadron. We often have people spectating and I don't think anyone would oppose to that. But don't be afraid to participate; it might be intimidating at first but DCS is probably one of the most welcoming gaming community out there.

I just want to add, that rudder pedals are not just a must have for flying helos, but also for the WW2 aircraft.

While I used to fly everything (helicopters, props, jets) with my twist stick for a long time, the difference with having rudder pedals can be immense. I was fine with twist stick but now I wouldn't want to go back, ever.

I'm using the T-Flight Hotas since about 6 or 7 years now and I've been really happy with what I got for the money and I can definitely assure you you won't regret getting it. At some point you will want a better one, just as I pursue getting a Warthog now, but for the beginning it is more than enough. Don't having any experience with the Saitek products.

On some online servers you can spectate players but most servers (especially the combat ones) forbid spectating. Overall, don't worry about joining some MP session.

Usually people are friendly - and even if they're not, then just don't mind them. I'm flying MP almost exclusively and I enjoy it ever since. :)

I currently have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and thinking of upgrading [...]

 

I'm looking at the Saitek X52 and Thrustmaster T-Flight. There is a significant price difference. Does the Saitek warrant the extra cost?

 

[...]

 

Rudder pedals. Are they necessary?

I think the T-Flight is not really an upgrade. I used to have one, but there are worlds between that and the X52 Pro (which I have now).

As for rudder, personally I'm not willing to spend hundreds of coins on them. And the cheap ones I have tried turned out to be super uncomfortable to use.

I play both planes and helicopters (including Huey and Gazelle) with the rudder mapped to the thumb wheel on the X52's throttle. With some curve tuning and practice (to get your brains used to that odd setup) it works rather well. Sure, it would never be as accurate as proper peddals, but if they aren't comfortable to use, there's really hardly any difference in accuracy. Surely that works well enough if you are a) on a budget or b) not intending to compete in multiplayer for the best part of the day, every day. :smilewink:

I'd say go for X52 (Pro) if budget permits. Worry about other peripherals later.

EDIT to add: the thumb wheel is more accurate for the rudder than the twist stick, because it stays where you put it and doesn't need you to force it in place all the time.

Thanks for the good info. It gives me pause before just going out and buying the X52. I may just have to plan on spending more and getting quality or just get a T-Flight for the short term.

My only online flight experience goes back 25 years ago when I played Genies Airwarrior for a little while. We're talking 9600/14440 baud modems. I had a 486/SX and was envious of those who had the 486/66 death machines and those who could afford the just introduced Pentiums. Warping was a big problem back then.

Is it possible or even allowed to play something like a SAM or AAA gunner in online play if you have combined arms?

If your budget allows for it, I would strongly suggest the X55 or X56 over the X52. The build quality it a little bit better, having split throttles is very useful for twin-engine aircraft, and invaluable on the P-51 (one for throttle, one for RPM governor). The stick on the X-55/56 also has a threaded coupler which allows it to be quickly disconnected from the base. I've just ordered a busted X55 off ebay for practically nothinh so i can salvage this part and make a stick extension with it, rather than having to do a hack job on my good stick.

Having owned the X-52, the X-52 Pro, and the X-55, the X-55 is hands-down the best value for the money. I don't anticipate buying a new stick again, ever, unless this one gets smashed.

Thanks for the good info. It gives me pause before just going out and buying the X52. I may just have to plan on spending more and getting quality or just get a T-Flight for the short term.

 

My only online flight experience goes back 25 years ago when I played Genies Airwarrior for a little while. We're talking 9600/14440 baud modems. I had a 486/SX and was envious of those who had the 486/66 death machines and those who could afford the just introduced Pentiums. Warping was a big problem back then.

 

Is it possible or even allowed to play something like a SAM or AAA gunner in online play if you have combined arms?

For MP missions that have Combined Arms enabled, it's generally encouraged for players to grab whatever they like using (MBT, APC, SAM, AAA etc etc) or whatever's needed at any given time. That being said, you generally won't find that many CA multiplayer missions as most tend to focus on air-to air, or at most air-to-air with a bit of air to ground thrown in.

More generally, DCS is definitely a sim that rewards patience, practice and more practice. I'll echo Scarecrow101 in that it'll benefit you to start off with one aircraft (whichever is your favourite). Read the manual. Read the manual again, then read it again just to make sure. Start off going through basic procedures, e.g. startup & taxi. Take the time to learn things until you can do them with confidence before moving on to the next, more complicated step, rince and repeat.

If you imagine an air force training course on a particular aircraft lasting anything from 25-100 hours, then consider that you'll have to put in a similar amount of time to become basically proficient with a DCS aircraft.

Never be afraid to ask questions here on the forum: the DCS forum is genuinely the most friendly, knowledgeable and informative game forum I've ever had the pleasure of being a member of.

Also consider jumping on to the Virtual Aerobatics multiplayer server. It's a free flight, no weapons & no combat server. Nobody will care how often you crash or how you chose to fly: everyone's there to have fun in their favourite aircraft and to try new things. Generally the flyers on the server will be more than happy to help you out with questions or queries.

To answer your original question about rudders: yes, they're very useful. For choppers and WW2 aircraft I'd say they're absolutely essential. For Korea era jets like the MiG-15 and F-86 they're very useful and even for modern high-performance jets like the F-15C and Su-27 they're extremely useful for cross-wind takeoffs and landings. Well worth getting a set if you can afford them.

Happy flying :)

Do you know how to use the Mission Builder?

I'm now leaning towards the Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Joystick and the Thrustmaster TFRP Flight Rudder Pedal-although I'm not sure about the mechanics of how the TFRP works. I owned a Thrustmaster HOTAS and rudders when it first came out some 20 or so years ago and the rudders were strange. It didn't work the way I expected- I flew gliders a little when I was young and I expected the rudder pedals to work by just applying downward foot pressure on it. If the TFRP operates on the same principal as I remember, then I may look for something else.

The CH Products Pro Pedals USB Flight Simulator Pedals look interesting, but they are cheap...

I also had a Saitek when it first came out-once again this was 20 or so years ago. If IIRC it too eventually failed on me and I ended up tossing it into the trash.

From what I'm reading it seems Saitek has some quality control issues and the X-55 Rhino H.O.T.A.S is awfully pricey.

I kinda do like the WW2 stuff a little better, but I probably owned and played just about every flight sim out there from 1990 to 2000 and then faded out. Most of it was offline against the computer, I did enjoy Airwarrior alot-but it got pricey for me as I didn't have a lot of disposable income back then. They then came out with a version that really taxed my computer to the limit and it was no longer fun so I gave it up.

The last helocopter sim I played extensively was Janes AH-64 Longbow.

I do play a lot of h2h Combat Mission and from what I do know from that and the experience in AW from 20 years ago is playing against the computer AI and against a real human is night and day and I suspect that hasn't changed or is any different in DCS-you put the time offline learning how to crawl, then go online and get hosed by more experienced player and learn by the school of hard knocks.

Regarding the mission editor-I know it a little, but not extensively. When I got the Nevada add on and tried to open it with my old system it was dog slow and took forever to load. The Black Sea map was better, but even then it could bog down my system which was a 6 year old liquid cooled system. Ether way things got slow when i tried to play at 1650x1050 which is the resolution I'm used to using for just about everything else.

It was then I decided to spend some of the OT money I've been making and get a new system. I ended up getting another liquid cooled system-I7 6700K, 16G DDR4-2800 RAM, 2 Intel 540s SSD, GTX-970 and Corsair 750w power supply. I'm very happy with it. DCS runs well as does everything else I play.

Now I have to get some decent controllers. Heck at this point I may as well upgrade my computer furniture to accomodate all this stuff-suggestions are welcomed. I currently have a table with a dual monitor stand with 2 24 inch LCDs.

If you got the bucks to buy the Warthog BUY IT! I decided that if I was going to do this I was going to do it right and bought it. I have never looked back. Hands down, the best there is.

I currently fly the Su 25t and the F15c. I haven't needed them so far but if I was going to buy one it would be the best one I could find.

I have a few newbie questions:

 

I currently have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and thinking of upgrading to something better now that I have a system that can run DCS well at 1650x1050 with everything cranked up to ultra.

 

I'm looking at the Saitek X52 and Thrustmaster T-Flight. There is a significant price difference. Does the Saitek warrant the extra cost?

 

The x56 looks nice , but that pretty pricey.

 

Rudder pedals. Are they necessary? Do modern jets still have rudder pedals? I though some jets like the F-16 did away with them. I do see the Thrustmaster TFRP that are $89. I've seem even more expensive ones that are in the $400 to 500 range, but can't see spending that much.

 

I have FCS, A-10 and P-51 as well as Combined Arms and the Nevada module. I don't have much experience and a whole lot of time. I can get off the ground and fly around, but not much else. Landing usually results in a damaged if not completely wrecked plane at the moment.

 

I also have Rise of Flight installed.

 

Online play-how is that and considering I have little experience is that any fun or will it be an exercise in frustration. Can you just be a spectator?

 

Are there some links that can explain all of this in more detail?

Some really good questions and everyone has had some really good answers too. Here's my 2 cents from the last year or two that I have been playing DCS World.

I use the Saitek X-52. I want for no other joystick, not even the X-55. It accomplishes what I need in all the aircraft I fly (including the helos). I use the X rotator as my rudder control, as opposed to the twist grip, since i do not have rudder pedals, nor do I feel I need them. The X rotator is where my thumb naturally rests on my left hand, so it is perfect for that for me.

Real aircraft still use rudder pedals. We are not THAT advanced yet.

Regarding landings, practice, practice, practice. You will get better over time. As suggested before, pick one plane, learn it, then move on to another plane and learn it.

I personally love online play, but I do not do it often enough because I am usually recording single player missions for YouTube. I would like to get online more often with multiplayer, perhaps in the future. It is definitely more challenging because AI can largely be predicted. A human opponent cannot. I have had a lot more fun online than offline (single player), but the benefit for me with single player is as I said before... I know where everything will be so it makes it easier to plan out a video episode.

As for links, YouTube is your friend. A LOT of us have videos up going over every detail of any plane or helo you desire to learn about.

I would say also to play around with Combat Arms. Learn how the ground forces interact and what their limitations are. It will definitely help when you decide to create your own missions, plus it is so cool to play armchair general, when you do not feel like actually flying a sortie.

Either way, good luck!! Blue skies to you!

If you are going to fly a real aircraft one day, it's good to have rudder pedals and get used to them from the very first day! With time you use them instinctively, and are really useful in combat dogfights, crosswind takeoff and landings, formations, and all related to flight (I think that's something every aircraft still has isn't it?)

I have a Logitech G940 which include pedals, force feedback and many other beauties that make the flight very real

Where is the cheapest place to get a TM HOTAS setup? I saw a thread where it was being sold for $300 for both, but that seems to have ended. I'd like to get the Monster Tech mounts to go along with it.

How are the CH Products Pro Pedals USB Flight Simulator Pedals? I'm leaning towards that as rudder pedals. How are the CH Products USB Combatstick and CH Products Pro Throttle USB. I could save quite a bit of money if I went that route.

It looks like I'll pick the F-15 as the plane I'll focus on first. I don't see any training missions, but have seen some good videos on youtube as well as the guide in another section.

I downloaded the F-15 Training video as well as the Red Flag video and installed it, but I don't see it anywhere in DCS.

I have A-10 which I bought when it first came out. I love the airplane, but for some reason I haven't taken a strong interest in flying it. Not sure exactly why. I don't own F-86 or Mig-15, but they look like fun. I played the F-86 in AW in some fun h2h dogfights. The Mirage also looks interesting as does the F-5, but I'll just focus on the F-15 for now. I haven't looked through al the threads, but IIRC the Mirage still needs some work?

I have P-51 and the German stuff is also interesting, but in some of the threads it looks like the damage modeling may need work? It will be very interesting once Europe and the WW2 module comes out.

I started out 6 months ago learning to fly the SU25t. That is a handful to fly so when I moved over to the F-15c it was very easy. It's like driving a old pickup to driving a new c7 corvette.

If you need some help I would be happy to share what I have learned over the last few months.

I fly the f-15 everyday.

scarecrow101-thanks. I'll have to take you up on your offer. It may be a while before I go online as I still have a long ways to go. At least its not all Greek to me. When Falcon 3.0 came out I spent hours reading the manuals and hours more flying it as well as other sims like Janes F-15, so I have a little idea, but once again offline and online play are night and day....

Mr Bell Geode-I watched one of your youtube videos and thoroughly enjoyed it. I'll have to take a look at the other ones.

I also enjoyed Commander T's air racing videos. Do those also take place online?

Good luck bud, let me know if I can help.

How are the CH Products Pro Pedals USB Flight Simulator Pedals? I'm leaning towards that as rudder pedals. How are the CH Products USB Combatstick and CH Products Pro Throttle USB. I could save quite a bit of money if I went that route.

Minus the pedals this is the setup I'm currently using. I've had the stick and throttle for well over 5 years now and neither has ever missed a beat - great reliability and both are as accurate and precise today as they were the day I took them out of the box. Very highly recommended.

The stick is actually designed to mimic the A-10C stick, but is fine for all the other aircraft in DCS (I don't fly the A-10, the Su-27 is currently my baby) whereas the throttle is somewhat more generic but comes with a ton of 4 and 8 way hat switches as well as a miniature cursor control thumb stick.

The only down side if you think of it this way is that the stick and throttle don't share a USB plug so together they'll use up 2, but then you could easily plug them in to a USB hub.

In reality the CH products HOTAS setup is probably a small step below the Warthog, but I'd say it's definitely the next best thing and as you explained, they're a lot cheaper.

Now a mere 3 days short of 3 years subsequent to your original post, I wonder if you did switch from Extreme Pro 3D stick, and if so, which stick you went with? A couple days ago one YT training video producer said the Extreme 3D Pro was his current stick of choice. Not too shabby a product, on my 2nd one in 6 years. Re: rudders...... I REALLY like the twist handle. My big problem is slop in the stick; I'm trying to tune the rudder so I don't get so much wobble and spiked turns.......

When I worked for DoD support group I had made the acquaintance of an engineer who loved to fly. We'd grab a 2 or 4-seater from Tipton airfield at Ft. Meade in Maryland .... many lunches at 3500 feet over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge :)

He gave me the aircraft all the time...... and I hated rudder pedals, ESPECIALLY on taxi. Slop and flop on the ground; I dread the thought of a solo test recovering from a stall. He once pulled one on me...... haul-ass vertical, and hang...... then he says "if the rudder cable breaks, we're history...." Pretty funny to pull one of those maneuvers when least expected..... to him, anyway.

I saw somewhere a new idea for some jets..... a lateral port on the outer sides of the engines. Use vectored exhaust instead of a floppy rudder.