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Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


M0ltar

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The premis that "feel" is a substitute for scanning the accelerometer for G control is inaccurate. The idea that G tolerances are only for time-life fatigue mitigation is inaccurate. Brand new aircraft have been rendered unflyable due to broken or deformed parts after a single non catastrophic over G. The damage model in the game is lacking. Please, for the love of God and all that is holy, will the DCS community come to terms with this reality regarding over G once and for all.

 

Nazgul hit the nail on the head ..... all this mental jujitsu, to some how rationalize playing the game in such away that is literally unrealistic, claiming it mitigates the inherent flaws of a program on a computer, now some how becomes more realistic is utterly ridiculous. Gamers are cherry picking what they believe is a more important "realistic " concept that should be implemented, doing so simply because it facilitates how they play the game, then masking it as a pursuit of "realisum" ..


Edited by Lex Talionis
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Simple thing is that this is a game, not real life. Nobody is contesting your legitimacy as a real world former fighter pilot but what you are ultimately trying to do here is using a ruleset that was designed for real jets and real air combat in a video game.

 

This is a simulator, one of the finest but at the end of the day, it is still a video game in nature.

I am not saying it's easier or harder to learn than the real thing, I am saying that competing in DCS and in real life are 2 different animals, with each presenting its own challenges.

 

No disrespect, Mover, but although you are a veteran in a real jet, you are still a beginner in DCS.

Try to take into consideration what people have to say here, most have been playing for ages and know this game inside out.

 

I for one, always appreciate when real world pilots join us in here but we should learn from each other and move forward together.

 

Pretty much this. When one crawls up the ranks to the best virtual Pilots around one will soon see that very much to the contrary of real life dogfights the planes limitation is more important than the pilot skill, because skill is kind of equally distributed up there. Pretty much everyone who has contributed and made a place on the podium of past tournaments knows pretty well what he's doing. That's why even minor differences in aircraft performance can have a pretty big impact of the outcome of a fight.

 

No offense Mover but I've seen your videos of flying bfm in DCS and whilst I have no reason to believe you are a bad real life pilot your performance in DCS is pretty far behind the performance of the top virtual pilots I've come across.

 

I've tried it in DCS. Just like in the real jet, you have to really be doing poor BFM to be anywhere above 7 Gs most of the time. It's just not a high G fighter. It doesn't need to be.

That's why I think you are not yet experienced enough to tell if high Gs are needed when competing against certain other planes in DCS. What may be true for the real world doesnt need to hold true in DCS. Put the top dcs pilots up (small skill gap) against each other in 2 F-18 giving the first 7G and the second 9G. The 9G pilot will win 9/10 times just because of the ability to convert energy better. If me winning by using the ability to pull 9G is considered poor bfm so be it. In the end I still won. That's my personal experience, but I am sure many seasoned virtual pilots will agree.

 

Rulesets are difficult. I can totally see why one would ban the paddle for a fight F-18 against F-16 as both have a somewhat realistic flight model plus strenghts and weaknesses to play. But I lack to see the fairness in taking away the paddle of an F-18 in a fight against a M2000 as does nothing more than heavily limiting the ability to win in the F-18, solely because the current performance of the M2000 in certain flight regimes is just as debatable as the use of the paddle.

 

If the tournaments goal would be to find the best skilled pilot all would have to fly the same plane. Balancing the planes is impossible. In my opinion it would be best to let the players do what the game enables them to (without the use of cheats, hacks and glitches of course). Imposing artificial G-Limits does nothing but shift advantages from one plane to another whilst making it seem arbitrary. Nobody knows of many times a certain real life F-18 or F-14 can take 9Gs, so be it. The game DCS in it's current state enables you to pull 9Gs with impunity just like it enables you to turn at rediculous turn rates in the Mirage near stall speed. Many things in DCS may be unrealistic, but with your ruleset not all but only certain things get fixed. This understandibly causes frustration.

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:lol: Real life > you hurt yourself and GLOC.

 

DCS Life, anyone can (and does, ad nauseum) argue about silly things like this as an "expert."

 

As I said above, breaking the jet is still an F-Kill.

 

 

I have found others real life example about F14 about the fact that g-limit very often was not respected and full flaps were used:

 

 

Full flaps in a real life video, it's not DCS :D

 

 

Paco Chierici https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

 

The A-model was also underpowered for maneuvering fights with an approximately 0.67:1 thrust to weight ratio. Furthermore, we had a 6.5 G limit, though there was no black box that would tell on you, so we often went well beyond 7 G. While it had massive elevators that would develop an incredible instantaneous pitch rate, the lack of ailerons and the sheer width of the plane made the roll rate sluggish.

 

 

F-15s liked to drag the Tomcat high and use their superior thrust to gain an advantage. An off-the-books tactic we used to counter this was to manually extend the wings to the fullest, then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting. It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck.

Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief.

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Pretty much this. When one crawls up the ranks to the best virtual Pilots around one will soon see that very much to the contrary of real life dogfights the planes limitation is more important than the pilot skill, because skill is kind of equally distributed up there. Pretty much everyone who has contributed and made a place on the podium of past tournaments knows pretty well what he's doing. That's why even minor differences in aircraft performance can have a pretty big impact of the outcome of a fight.

 

No offense Mover but I've seen your videos of flying bfm in DCS and whilst I have no reason to believe you are a bad real life pilot your performance in DCS is pretty far behind the performance of the top virtual pilots I've come across.

 

 

That's why I think you are not yet experienced enough to tell if high Gs are needed when competing against certain other planes in DCS. What may be true for the real world doesnt need to hold true in DCS. Put the top dcs pilots up (small skill gap) against each other in 2 F-18 giving the first 7G and the second 9G. The 9G pilot will win 9/10 times just because of the ability to convert energy better. If me winning by using the ability to pull 9G is considered poor bfm so be it. In the end I still won. That's my personal experience, but I am sure many seasoned virtual pilots will agree.

 

Rulesets are difficult. I can totally see why one would ban the paddle for a fight F-18 against F-16 as both have a somewhat realistic flight model plus strenghts and weaknesses to play. But I lack to see the fairness in taking away the paddle of an F-18 in a fight against a M2000 as does nothing more than heavily limiting the ability to win in the F-18, solely because the current performance of the M2000 in certain flight regimes is just as debatable as the use of the paddle.

 

If the tournaments goal would be to find the best skilled pilot all would have to fly the same plane. Balancing the planes is impossible. In my opinion it would be best to let the players do what the game enables them to (without the use of cheats, hacks and glitches of course). Imposing artificial G-Limits does nothing but shift advantages from one plane to another whilst making it seem arbitrary. Nobody knows of many times a certain real life F-18 or F-14 can take 9Gs, so be it. The game DCS in it's current state enables you to pull 9Gs with impunity just like it enables you to turn at rediculous turn rates in the Mirage near stall speed. Many things in DCS may be unrealistic, but with your ruleset not all but only certain things get fixed. This understandibly causes frustration.

:megalol: Okay.

 

You guys are ridiculous. :thumbup:

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The premis that "feel" is a substitute for scanning the accelerometer for G control is inaccurate. The idea that G tolerances are only for time-life fatigue mitigation is inaccurate. Brand new aircraft have been rendered unflyable due to broken or deformed parts after a single non catastrophic over G. The damage model in the game is lacking. Please, for the love of God and all that is holy, will the DCS community come to terms with this reality regarding over G once and for all.

 

Nazgul hit the nail on the head ..... all this mental jujitsu, to some how rationalize playing the game in such away that is literally unrealistic, claiming it mitigates the inherent flaws of a program on a computer, now some how becomes more realistic is utterly ridiculous. Gamers are cherry picking what they believe is a more important "realistic " concept that should be implemented, doing so simply because it facilitates how they play the game, then masking it as a pursuit of "realisum" ..

 

Thank you. I hope ED is listening.

 

Also, please know that some of us "gamers" have shouted into the wilderness about over-g before. We are not a monolithic group.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Thank you. I hope ED is listening.

 

Also, please know that some of us "gamers" have shouted into the wilderness about over-g before. We are not a monolithic group.

 

Guys are taking this a lil too serious. It's a video game. I mean if it were a realistic game when guys landed and how they get on the brakes and just hold the brakes down. The jet would be in maintenance getting new brakes. Again it's a game. And it's Movers' tournament. Follow his rules or don't play.

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I have found others real life example about F14 about the fact that g-limit very often was not respected and full flaps were used:

 

 

Full flaps in a real life video, it's not DCS :D

 

 

Paco Chierici https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

 

The A-model was also underpowered for maneuvering fights with an approximately 0.67:1 thrust to weight ratio. Furthermore, we had a 6.5 G limit, though there was no black box that would tell on you, so we often went well beyond 7 G. While it had massive elevators that would develop an incredible instantaneous pitch rate, the lack of ailerons and the sheer width of the plane made the roll rate sluggish.

 

 

F-15s liked to drag the Tomcat high and use their superior thrust to gain an advantage. An off-the-books tactic we used to counter this was to manually extend the wings to the fullest, then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting. It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck.

Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief.

 

Great. Pilots used to smoke cigarettes in the cockpit too. Modern military air forces are much more professional than decades ago. The attitude of blowing off G limits (in the few places that attitude existed) is antiquated and has not been seen in decades. If you want to say that this tournament is F-14 in the 1990, then fine. But it isn’t. And in recent decades and especially today, limits are limits and they are honored. We don’t smoke in the cockpit, even if some people used to a long time ago.

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What a rambling response.

 

Flight simulation is a genre of video game. Some of the aircraft in DCS suffer structural failure with over-g and some don't. If the damage modeling were more accurate Mover could strike a few of those rules from his list.

 

No idea why you're advising us that it's Mover's tournament and to follow his rules. Hopefully you understand why the rules are necessary for meaningful competition; they are not arbitrary, they are not mere opinion.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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What a rambling response.

 

Flight simulation is a genre of video game. Some of the aircraft in DCS suffer structural failure with over-g and some don't. If the damage modeling were more accurate Mover could strike a few of those rules from his list.

 

No idea why you're advising us that it's Mover's tournament and to follow his rules. Hopefully you understand why the rules are necessary for meaningful competition; they are not arbitrary, they are not mere opinion.

 

I think I made my point pretty clear, why imposed G-Limits are arbitrary. I've heard no argument to counter that. Now the G-Limit for the Hornet is 8G. 7.5G + 0.5G. But why is it not 8.2G why only + 0.5G. Because the one who made the ruleset decided it's + 0.5G. Totally arbitrary. Letalone the fact that one does regularly exceed these limits even without hitting the paddle.

 

Btw. the DCS F-18 also suffers from structural failure. A damaged wing will snap when a corresponding G load is exceeded. Depending on the damage this G-Load may even be achieved without the use of the paddle. It just won't snap by pulling withoug structural damage whilst hitting the paddle, as it most likely wouldn't also in real life. People seem to think the paddle just disables all limits and enables you disintegrate your plane just by pulling. This is most certainly isn't the case, as it just raises the G-Limit while the limiter is still in place.

 

It's easy to brandmark all critique as rediculous. Still overperforming aircraft in different flight regimes always have and most certainly will be a problem in DCS. That being said, just employing G-limits to all planes is not the solution as problems with planes overperforming below the G-limit will not be adressed.

 

Thank you.

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I think I made my point pretty clear, why imposed G-Limits are arbitrary. I've heard no argument to counter that. Now the G-Limit for the Hornet is 8G. 7.5G + 0.5G. But why is it not 8.2G why only + 0.5G. Because the one who made the ruleset decided it's + 0.5G. Totally arbitrary. Letalone the fact that one does regularly exceed these limits even without hitting the paddle.

 

Btw. the DCS F-18 also suffers from structural failure. A damaged wing will snap when a corresponding G load is exceeded. Depending on the damage this G-Load may even be achieved without the use of the paddle. It just won't snap by pulling withoug structural damage whilst hitting the paddle, as it most likely wouldn't also in real life. People seem to think the paddle just disables all limits and enables you disintegrate your plane just by pulling. This is most certainly isn't the case, as it just raises the G-Limit while the limiter is still in place.

 

It's easy to brandmark all critique as rediculous. Still overperforming aircraft in different flight regimes always have and most certainly will be a problem in DCS. That being said, just employing G-limits to all planes is not the solution as problems with planes overperforming below the G-limit will not be adressed.

 

Thank you.

 

The G limit for the hornet is 7.5.

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@Mortalcombat,

 

My reply wasn't to you. You must have posted just before me.

 

FWIW, the F-14 will disintegrate with enough G. No damage required. Something is awry with the simulation when other jets can be over-g'd repeatedly in the same sortie without any risk of consequences (need not be full disintegration).


Edited by gavagai

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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The G limit for the hornet is 7.5.

?

 

F-16 9.5G

F/A-18 8.0G

Mirage 9.5

F-14 8G

F-15 9.5G

SU-27 9.5G

MiG-29 9.5G

A-10 7.33G

F-5 7.5G

MiG-21 9G

F-86 7.5G

MiG-15 6G

JF-17 8.5G

Harrier 8.5G

Viggen 7.5G

All Props 8.5G

*G limits for all aircraft consist of the main aircraft G limit and a .5 buffer. For example, the FA-18C Hornet has a G limit of 7.5. We have added a buffer of .5 to allow for inaccuracies in the sim and Tacview for a total G limit of 8 which can be seen above in the G limit list. Therefore it is heavily advised that you fly to the actual aircraft G limit and not the G limit + the buffer. Give yourself room or you may find your self disqualified.

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Great. Pilots used to smoke cigarettes in the cockpit too. Modern military air forces are much more professional than decades ago. The attitude of blowing off G limits (in the few places that attitude existed) is antiquated and has not been seen in decades. If you want to say that this tournament is F-14 in the 1990, then fine. But it isn’t. And in recent decades and especially today, limits are limits and they are honored. We don’t smoke in the cockpit, even if some people used to a long time ago.

 

 

This is realism, "smoked cigarettes", just like over G and full flaps, were real. There was no black box to see if the pilot made over G. So, if you want realism in a fight against F14, you must accept all this. F14, unfortunately, was dismissed 15 years ago, and almost all the F14 were destroyed to avoid iranian can have spare parts. I don't want to judge what was wrong and what was right but that was and a tournament with F14 in 2020 is totally unrealistic. What the simulation could bring us, for example, is a 1990 F14 vs a 2020 F16 and so on. But the 1990 F14 with a pilot like, Snodgrass or Satrapa or Chierici or Okie or many others, means over G and full flaps.

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What a rambling response.

 

Flight simulation is a genre of video game. Some of the aircraft in DCS suffer structural failure with over-g and some don't. If the damage modeling were more accurate Mover could strike a few of those rules from his list.

 

No idea why you're advising us that it's Mover's tournament and to follow his rules. Hopefully you understand why the rules are necessary for meaningful competition; they are not arbitrary, they are not mere opinion.

 

Because it's a game and it is his tournament. BTW a 14 will not break it's wings off like in the game. The pilot would pass out before that happens. Not my words. But the words of a retired maintenance officer here in Va Beach VA where I live. He kinda laughed when I said the wings snap off in the game.


Edited by Carlos
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Thank you :)

 

Btw. why are you not participating? Show us how it's done mate ;)

 

Because the intent of the tournament is to raise money for charity. I have nothing to prove. Whether or not you believe I'm a "good gamer" or a "beginner at DCS" is irrelevant.

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Because it's a game and it is his tournament. BTW a 14 will not break it's wings off like in the game. The pilot would pass out before that happens. Not my words. But the words of a retired maintenance officer here in Va Beach VA where I live. He kinda laughed when I said the wings snap off in the game.

 

So, is it fair that some DCS modules have critical over-g limits and others don't? I think not. Like I said, it need not be structural failure, but the simulation will be more accurate when there are consequences for over-g'ing the jet repeatedly.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Because the intent of the tournament is to raise money for charity. I have nothing to prove. Whether or not you believe I'm a "good gamer" or a "beginner at DCS" is irrelevant.

 

So a nice way of saying f*** you i don't want too...

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Because the intent of the tournament is to raise money for charity. I have nothing to prove. Whether or not you believe I'm a "good gamer" or a "beginner at DCS" is irrelevant.

 

Well, it may be to you, but actually it isn't to people reading your posts. When you make claims as "the F-18 doesn't have to be a rate fighter" while referring to DCS it matters if you have been able to actually put it to the test in DCS or if that claim is unsubtantial.

 

I'm able to beat the F-18 easily in the F-86, given the pilot I go up against is bad enough. But I don't claim the F-86 is a more capable dogfighter. Tough I might, if I've never gone up against someone who beats me in that scenerio, which is where I see you.

 

Also you mentioned in today's stream that you've gone up against Sungho and you uploaded that video on your channel. I did not see this video back in the days nor was I able to find it while searching now. I would gladly appreciate if you could post the link.

 

Thanks in advance.

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So, is it fair that some DCS modules have critical over-g limits and others don't? I think not. Like I said, it need not be structural failure, but the simulation will be more accurate when there are consequences for over-g'ing the jet repeatedly.

 

 

I agree. Maybe Eagle Dynamics will get it where the jet will break. Bit damn how much realism do you want? The real fighter pilots take years to develop their skills. Us gamers are just jumping in to have fun.

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