Proposal - instead of Force Feedback...

Finally leaving my trusty G940 behind for a full Virpil set as I have given up hope that there will be any serious FFB sticks on the market again. Even if that FF patent is now gone that some mean was the problem, it is simply too expensive / complicated to do it. The lovely small Eastern Block guys are great at mechanics, but doing FF is another level of complexity... Having FF motors / magnets to simulate stick forces must be a royal pain to implement, especially with no FF deadzone in the middle etc.

So, now I sit here and think back of the good things about FF and what I really will miss. Before my G940 I used a MSFFB 2 so long time since I flew non FF.

Naturally it's for the prop planes where the FF will be missed most, really nice to feel the speed with the increasing resistance in the stick like in a real small plane (I fly gliders and single engine IRL). And the stall buffeting naturally. And the slight vibration when you fire your guns that adds a lot of immersion.

Then I realized that the stall buffeting is really the main thing I will miss as that really helps you flying the plane "hard", the other effects are just for immersion. You are down low turning hard in your Me 109 and that slight shudder in the stick is what makes you ease the pressure a bit. And that is really easy to add to a Virpil stick etc. vith a "vibrator".

So just add a vibrator like in a Console controller to the Virpil or VKB sticks and the main thing I will miss from my FF days is gone. Really easy to do and we could have stall buffeting and vibrations when you fire your gun. Would easily pay quite a bit more for a Virpil or VKS grip with a "vibrator" like that. And engineered in a couple of days...

Hi mazex, here is how I did just that with a Buttkicker Gamer 2. Not quite built-in to the stick, but the guns and especially the stall buffeting (plus many other vibrations) come thru beautifully!

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApoUzIqjahsnn9oEh4LXQxhkLbLhtg

Hi mazex, here is how I did just that with a Buttkicker Gamer 2. Not quite built-in to the stick, but the guns and especially the stall buffeting (plus many other vibrations) come thru beautifully!

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApoUzIqjahsnn9oEh4LXQxhkLbLhtg

But it would be nice to get it built into the stick from the factory!

+1 on the buttkicker. mine is strapped directly to the bottom of my seat. the guns do some serious butt kicking. i've got the stall buffet setting much lower, works really well. I suspect the vib seats will also work (thinking of adding one to my rig too)

Damnit - another thing on the "nice to have list" that has moved dangerously close to the purchase level :)

The problem for me having a home office for gaming that normal days is supposed to look like an office (according to my wife). So strapping a buttkicker to my rolling office chair is not an ideal solution.

I guess I will need to look into the vibration seat solutions that I now noticed that there are many threads about here.

EDIT: Why did I not realize that there where vibration mats that are integrated with flight sims before? This sub forum is full of them... And that fulfills my stall buffetting demand and more immersion stuff. Only problem is that we are obviously dependent on two small eastern European "indie companies" with supply problems, just like we are in the joystick domain :)

This sub-forum has cost me EUR 1400 this week...

* First a Virpil Hotas set after reading in the threads here 7 days ago...

* Then a VKB T-Rudder set (have a swiveling office chair) 4 days ago...

* And finally after this thread a Forcefeel ordered just now (as Andre seems in short supply). Not that Forcefeel shipping seems reliable ;)

:)

You will not regret the forcefeel seat. For me its the best things in terms of immersion. I could fly with mouse and keyboard and still had the feeling to be sitting in an aircraft or race car. The only thing which could top the forcefeel seat is bergisons g-seat. But that one is on another budget level and not in production for now.

The only problem you will run into is, you will not fly or race something without a proper support for it. :D

You will not regret the forcefeel seat. For me its the best things in terms of immersion. I could fly with mouse and keyboard and still had the feeling to be sitting in an aircraft or race car. The only thing which could top the forcefeel seat is bergisons g-seat. But that one is on another budget level and not in production for now.

The only problem you will run into is, you will not fly or race something without a proper support for it. :D

No, I don't think so either. What I actually regret is not having dived down into this sub forum before. I have been popping by the main DCS forum a couple of times per month for almost ten years now. I thought the vibration seats where for car racing and only based on filtering the sound. With the Simshaker software you can do the "good stuff" and tweak it just the way I want to.

Sure - the Forcefeel support is very new and will mature with the help of all the enthusiasts here!

I did this some time ago but there was an issue with drivers under Win10

http://dangerdogz.com/forums/topic/7464-give-your-x52-some-feeling/

I did this some time ago but there was an issue with drivers under Win10

http://dangerdogz.com/forums/topic/7464-give-your-x52-some-feeling/

Vibration falls under the same dumb patents as FFB so licensing would be just as bad for manufacturers. Patent Trolls, the gift that never stops taking.

As for FFB. I can’t go back to a fixed center point personally. Trim center is by far my most important need for a controller.

I've looked into this before, but the patent is the least of the issues that's holding back FFB development:

No, I don't think so either. What I actually regret is not having dived down into this sub forum before. I have been popping by the main DCS forum a couple of times per month for almost ten years now. I thought the vibration seats where for car racing and only based on filtering the sound. With the Simshaker software you can do the "good stuff" and tweak it just the way I want to.

 

Sure - the Forcefeel support is very new and will mature with the help of all the enthusiasts here!

It´s an amazing experience.

I've looked into this before, but the patent is the least of the issues that's holding back FFB development:

 

If FFB wheels weren't so popular I'd believe that. Now that the patent is sundowning we'll just have to see where Logitech and Thrustmaster go. The fact that an amateur can build a working FFB yoke or stick base means it's perfectly easy to do.

The racing community is huge compared to the combat flight sim community. There are many companies making wheels, pedals, and sim rigs for racing, compared to just a handful for combat flight sims. Sim rigs in particular are almost universally built for sim racing first, with sim flight support tacked on as an afterthought.

A FFB wheel is practically necessary for sim racing, whereas it's mostly just a nice to have for sim flight. Whereas every car will have first-class support for a FFB wheel, most aircraft in DCS have poor FFB support, so poor that it's barely any better than a spring-based joystick.

Logitech hasn't made a joystick since 2009, and their current portfolio of flight sim gear solely consists of the products that they acquired when Mad Catz went under. Thrustmaster hasn't shown much interest in the flight sim community; in the past 7 years, they've released 3 budget offerings (T.16000M joystick, TWCS throttle, TFRP pedals) and only one high-end offering, the TPR pedals. It's arguable that the T.16000M joystick doesn't even count because it's targeted towards space sims, and not so much flight sims.

A Virpil or VKB base already costs $200-300. Add in two servo motors, electronics, a power source, and special firmware, and it's easy to see why force feedback devices in the GA market are not only rare, but start at $1,000. This is a price point that would drive away all but the most fervent of enthusiasts, even in the GA market. Hence why there are only 2-3 companies out there that sell force feedback yokes.

If you have any proof of amateurs easily building a working FFB yoke or stick base that doesn't cannibalize a MS FFB2, I'd love to see it. In my fairly extensive research into FFB and my attempts to build one myself, I've not come across anyone who has done it without using the MS FFB2 as a starting point, or has done it at a level that can still be considered amateur.

Everyone keeps saying that, other than the iRacing tryhards it doesn't seem like there's a lot more racing sim dorks than there are flight sim dorks.

As for DIY: Theres this guy with his home brew boards http://bffsimulation.com/FFB-yoke-1.php

And This which while a mess, started as a Sidwinder hack and then moved to a dedicated multichannel system. http://www.simprojects.nl/interfacing_2.htm

And through this very forums "Open Source Joystick FFB" is stuff like this company https://granitedevices.com/

And Open Source Control loading using an Arduino Mega http://vrflightsim.forumotion.com/t12-open-source-control-loading-system-os-cl

I think manufacturers just get to make more bang for their buck with a single channel wheel than they do from a stick. Also Wheels weren't part of the patent so when FFB sticks stoped being made wheels were able to mature.

Drivers is the only real PITA. And that's mostly because builder types aren't usually also driver programmers, so everyone just keeps using old sidewinder guts.

I don't see why a large manufacturer couldn't put out a product in the $500 range.

There are many more sim racers than there are combat flight simmers. The simracing subreddit alone has almost 3 times the number of subscribers than the hoggit subreddit. You can also see it in market support; our sims are limited to IL:2, DCS, and BMS, while in the sim racing world you have your choice between Forza, Gran Turismo, rFactor 2, Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Automobilista, and DiRT.

For primary controls, sim racers can choose between Thrustmaster, Logitech, Fanatec, Ecci, Heusinkveld, ProtoSimTech, Ricmotech, SimXperience, and the various OSW manufacturers. On our side, it's Thrustmaster, Logitech, Virpil, VKB, MFG, Slaw, and RealSimulator, though it should be noted that Virpil and VKB still have ongoing supply issues and Slaw is a special order that takes 6 months to fulfill.

For sim rigs, just off the top of my head I can name Next Level Racing, Obutto, GT Omega, Wheel Stand Pro, Vesaro, and Ricmotech. On our side, the only two that I know of that are purpose-built for flight sims is Volair Sim and MonsterTech.

There are also several sim racing blogs, such as Inside Sim Racing, Sim Racing Paddock, bsimracing, and The Simpit, whereas on the combat flight side, I only know of Stormbirds.blog.

On the DIY side, for BFF Simulation, when you get to the point that you're designing and manufacturing circuit boards, writing custom software for it, and putting them up for commercial sale, it's way beyond easy or amateur level. Similar to Brunner and other FFB devices intended for the GA market, it only supports the big 3 (FSX, Prepar3D, X-Plane), and you only get the board and software, but not the motors, belts, mounts, or enclosure.

Simprojects.nl, aside from documenting the resistor mod for the MS FFB2, is a collection of random info related to FFB rather than any kind of really useful guide. It's really just a blog, hasn't been updated in ages, and seems like it's just a lot of WIP stuff that didn't go anywhere.

The open source FFB thread on this forum has been going on for years now, with almost nothing to show for it. I haven't heard of Granite Devices before, but it looks like they only sell controller boards, making it one step behind BFF Simulation since you'd need to write the software yourself to interface with the sim. Their business model also seems like it's focused on providing controller boards for industrial devices, not home simulation use.

The "Open Source Control loading using an Arduino Mega" link is literally just a high-level conceptual diagram and an invitation to discuss.

So I still stand by my statement that I've yet to come across anyone who didn't start with a MS FFB2, or has done it at a level that can still be considered amateur or at least reproducible with off-the-shelf components.

Racing wheels are part of Immersion Corporation's patents: https://patents.google.com/patent/US8487873?oq=racing+wheel+haptic

On the software side, driver support is the easiest problem to solve. The PID protocol is well-documented and is easy to implement in most microcontrollers. Other issues such as gimbal design, power distribution, motor selection, and firmware implementation are much harder problems to solve because, unlike a common protocol, they have to be individually tailored depending on the parts used.

A large manufacturer could put out a product in the $500 range, but whether it'd be profitable is another matter. The Logitech G940, released in 2009, was $250 for a stick, throttle, and pedals, and this is with a patent license from Immersion, but it had some major issues that Logitech tried and failed to fix in firmware. That was 10 years ago though, and people's expectations have changed a lot since then. Plastic gimbals and potentiometers are no longer accepted in higher-end products. We need more than just one or two hats with 4-6 buttons. We want stronger motors with no cogging or dead zones so that we can use extensions, which means that gears can't be used and we need direct drive servo motors. These cost around $300 per motor for a cheap 100W model only capable of generating 0.3 Nm sustained, which is only marginally better than the MS FFB2 at 0.2 Nm. Coupled with the fairly small market of people who'd actually buy one, and exacerbated by the rather poor in-game support, means that any company who'd do it is likely doing it as a passion project and not looking to turn a profit.

@Ranma13 - thank you for a very comprehensive "state of the FFB union".

Unfortunately I have to agree with you, and thats why I finally gave up and went for the Virpil...

It doesn't help that Hoggit isn't so hot and is english speaker biased when flight sim is growing faster in europe. Nor that Reddit is much more of a casual boy racer/console baby kind of vibe overall. Or the fact that racing games have console based simutainment as well as more valid simulators.

Also don't forget the rest of Sim aviation, manufacturers can sell to that segment too, and it's still big (but fractured right now due to the whole P3D, X-plane, weird two other manufacturers.)

The wheel patent was too specific and was simply worked around. Laughably so really. They shot themselves in the foot by trying to cover both wheels and yokes and ended up only screwing Yokes.

As for amateur, well, I've seen makers who were flummoxed by cardboard, and I've seen and am the other kind, it's more trivial than you seem to believe. If you've a mind for that kind of making. It involves fun things like welding and sparks and stuff, and making friends with people with lathe and vertical mill addictions! Just like for a lot of makers, programming work arounds to DirectX's crippled Haptics is tantamount to building a boat out of dryer lint.

You can get 1 Nm stepper motors for under $30 at least where I am, Children make little wheelie robots and segway knockoffs with them. I've seen the Arduino type units work, they just can't talk to the damned GAME without multiple layers of cludged crappy designed by committee when they have the free time Python (blegh) code. And given that people (points to self) are willingly throwing down $500 for Thrustmasters fancy new and not at all space sim themed Rudder Pedals, I suspect the profitability is there if they wanted to look for it. Especially if they try harder than $250 for THREE sub standard components. I paid more than that for JUST my Fanatec Wheel (no pedals! No Shifter) 6 odd years ago.

And once people have sticks and yokes in hand, you can bet the software designers will get motivated to put in more comprehensive FFB. Just like they did with Racing sims. At this point it's a Chicken/Egg dilemma, that's NOT going to be solved by a Freemium combat sim company.

Also as someone who has had to pay real money to use Professional PCATD's (or ATD's or whatever the FAA calls them this week) with garbage spring centers because Immersions patent trolling, while also having used both the old pre-immersion patent Frasca (funny how they "invented" something that existed before they did) with flight control loading, as well as Level-D sims, yea FFB needs to come back. VR geeks wanna talk Immersive Experience? It's right there.

Never mind about how we personally feel about Reddit, I brought it up to compare and contrast the number of sim racers vs the number of combat flight simmers.

The GA market doesn't care about FFB as it's implemented in DCS and other sims that use the DirectInput FFB API. X-Plane 11 doesn't even have native support for it, and from what I gather, Prepar3D has poor support. This is why pretty much every GA FFB device has a separate plugin to handle FFB.

Immersion Corporation holds a large number of patents related to haptic feedback. If one doesn't cover racing wheels, another is surely to cover it; I just happened to link the first one I found. I'm not going to hunt down every relevant patent, as that'd be just a waste of time since none of us are going to read them in detail.

People have different skill levels, but I think we can agree that the attempts up to this point at DIY force feedback devices is well outside the realm of what an average person can accomplish. Just because someone can do it doesn't mean that it's "it's perfectly easy to do". Also, DirectInput doesn't have crippled haptics? As someone who's studied the DirectInput FFB API and is currently writing a FFB-related app, I have no idea what you're referring to.

For force feedback, you can't use stepper motors, you need servo motors. This article has a good explanation differentiating the two:

https://www.machinedesign.com/motion-control/what-s-difference-between-servo-and-stepper-motors

In particular, the chart shows why stepper motors can't be used: once they're in motion, the torque significantly drops off. Stepper motors are great if you need to hold a certain position and don't care that much about precision (compared to servo motors), but are not great at generating forces.

Yes, people are willing to pay $500, $1000, or even $2000, but it's not a matter of if there are customers or not, but rather the number of customers. At $500, that price point alone restricts it to only hardcore enthusiasts. At $1000, you're only looking at the top of the hardcore enthusiasts. My Slaw Device pedals at $700 has serial number 190, and my RealSimulator FSSB R3 at around the same price has serial number 51, though it's #51 of its respective batch. By comparison, my Virpil T-50 stick at $200 is serial number 1160. Though this isn't a perfect comparison since all 3 are different devices, I think it's a good way to show that as the price of a product increases, the number of customers drops off exponentially.

I mentioned the Logitech G940 because it specifically states that it uses Immersion's technology. There seems to be this belief that Immersion is a patent troll company and that they're the only thing holding back FFB devices, but even doing just a modicum of research into the company shows that this doesn't hold water. Not only does the company exist for the sole purpose of licensing its patents (as opposed to using its patents to shut out competitors), but they also appear to actively pursue licensing rights. Basically, if you have an idea and are serious about licensing with them, they'll work with you. Aside from the usual ideas like haptic feedback in phones and vehicles, some of the stranger things they've licensed out are haptic feedback for an animated sticker app, haptic feedback ads, a wearable backpack that translates music into vibrations, and iFeelPixel, an app that adds haptic feedback to various devices, some no longer in production. The G940 itself was only $250, which should give you an idea of just how much the licensing fee is.

In any case, this has really strayed from the original discussion and I think I've said all that really needs to be said. Enough has been communicated that people can make their own judgement about who has better points, but I will end with this: I encourage you to do your own research and challenge your own assumptions. Take a serious look into the components and skills you would need to build your own FFB device from scratch. Research Immersion Corporation, their patents, business model, and portfolio. Study the DirectInput FFB protocol, what it's capable of, how games implement it, how joysticks handle FFB commands, and the PID protocol. Examine the currently-available FFB devices, the price point they sell at and what features they have, then compare them to the discontinued FFB devices. Evaluate the possible market size for FFB devices, how well it's implemented in games, which features are must-haves and what the customer needs are, and come up with a realistic price point given the amount of work involved to bring it to market. I've done all of the above and this is the position from which I'm basing my claims on. When I say I've done extensive research, I'm not talking about a 5-minute Google search; this is months of accumulated knowledge. I could be wrong and I'm totally willing to accept that (and I'd be happy to be wrong if a company released a good but affordable FFB device), but so far I've not seen anything remotely close to convincing me otherwise.

Unfortunately, you're darn right.. Unless DCS would become a MMORPG game, we stand no chance in getting a proper FFB at an affordable price from any producer.

I looked over em, nope, they were weirdly specific, some reference that possibly someone else already had the Steering Wheel patent and wern't jerks about it.

The point is Moot anyways because looking at those patents, most of them Expire for good THIS YEAR!!! so that's awesome!

The point isn't how DCS does FFB, it's about how desired is the product in the market to EVERYONE, not just DCS users.

And we can't agree, DIY is diffrent for everyone, and really the "Average Person" just buys an X-box so they don't have to spend as much time making their game work as they do playing the game. Flight Sims are fidgety like that.

I literally just played X-plane 11.30 yesterday with my FFB stick with no add on software. SO not sure where you got that from. P3D's is way worse than it should be for being a "Professional Simulations Solution" but they do have FFB for the few nutters out there still running the things because here's the thing, they KNOW those patents are sundowning soon.

You don't need a servo motor for FFB, you can couple a stepper with an Angular sensor like a pot or Hall effect unit. That's how most of the "Legacy" units are built.

"Not only does the company exist for the sole purpose of licensing its patents (as opposed to using its patents to shut out competitors), but they also appear to actively pursue licensing rights."

That's a Patent Troll, I dont know what logitech's game was in playing ball with them, but the other manufacturers simply refused to do business with them since they would be licensing for designs they made themselves without Immersions sleazy patent. Just ask Sony about that, the Sixaxis was because of Immersions BS action. Action by the way that was filed AFTER the original Dual Shock existed in the market. Manufacturers only work with them when they HAVE to.

Slaw Realsimulator virpil etc are boutique manufacturers with no retail presence and barely any manufacturing capacity. I didn't know about any of them before I came to these forums following years of not simming. Guilimont and Logitech are in Walmarts they have real distribution and exist where people can see them.

As for DirectX, I only know what others have complained about and invariably worked around. The worst thing that happened to FFB was Microsoft turning out to be the 500 pound gorilla before the Immersion Corp fun police showed up and pissed everyone off.

And You don't have to be convinced The original post was about Rumble features in a stick, and as I said, it's a, now gratefully dying, immersion Corp patent, so it wouldn't be likely to show up in a mass market device, because the mass market manufacturers think Immersion Corp can go pound sand.

People want these things, the DAY the last Sidewinder 2 FFB was pulled from the shelves people have been asking "What ever happened to FFB stuff?" I think you may be confusing lack of available product for lack of desire.

Unfortunately, you're darn right.. Unless DCS would become a MMORPG game, we stand no chance in getting a proper FFB at an affordable price from any producer.

Good thing there's more Sim Flying out there than just DCS then.

Throughout your posts, I've noticed a distinct trend of you making claims with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You claim that you looked over Immersion's patents. So you searched through and understood all 922 patents? Can you at least provide a link to back up your claim that "some reference that possibly someone else already had the steering wheel patent"? You may be right, but I'm also not going to just take what you say at face value, because everything you've said I've already had to refute.

The definition of DIY is of course different for everyone, but most people have a good idea of what an average person can accomplish without specialized knowledge. I'm a programmer and most of my peers are programmers of equal or greater skill than me, but I'm not going to pretend that because I can write "DIY" software, that somehow it means that "it's perfectly easy to do". Frankly, I find it rather ridiculous that I even have to point out yet again that someone who has the skills to design and manufacture a circuit board is, in fact, not what an average person can do. Also, you have not shown me in any remotely convincing capacity that your statement, "The fact that an amateur can build a working FFB yoke or stick base means it's perfectly easy to do", has been accomplished by any amateur.

Last I checked, X-Plane requires the XPForce plugin to get any kind of actual FFB. There are also multiple reports from people who state that it doesn't support force feedback:

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/19999-xpforce/&page=2

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/156951-force-feedback-for-sidewinder-ff2-without-add-ins/

I literally explained why you can't use stepper motors to generate good FFB effects. Once again, it's only good for holding a certain position when the motors aren't moving, but the moment they start to move, torque drops off significantly. This makes it almost unusable in a FFB stick where you need to forces to be weak as you move away from the center point and get progressively stronger the faster and further you move the stick. You also don't need to use an encoder or any kind of angle sensor with stepper motors because they can move accurately to positions by themselves. From this article:

https://www.amci.com/industrial-automation-resources/plc-automation-tutorials/stepper-vs-servo/

Steppers don't require encoders since they can accurately move between their many poles whereas servos, with few poles, require an encoder to keep track of their position.

And which legacy units are you referring to? The MS FFB2, which doesn't use stepper motors, but rather a motor similar to the Mabuchi RS-540? Or is this yet another vague claim that you're not going to back up with proof?

You should re-check your definition of patent troll. Straight from Wikipedia:

However, some entities which do not practice their asserted patent may not be considered "patent trolls" when they license their patented technologies on reasonable terms in advance.

This is exactly what Immersion Corp does. A patent troll isn't someone who sues other people for patent infringement, it's someone who acquires patents for the sole purpose of suing other people, or charging exorbitant licensing fees. Immersion, on the other hand, exists to license their patents, and all evidence points to them setting pretty fair usage terms. Once again, the Logitech G940 was $250 and iFeelPixel is $11.

You claim that other manufacturers simply refused to do business with them. Where's your proof? Maybe an article? I'll even accept an anecdote from someone in the industry. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to believe this simply because you said so, because all my research points to the contrary. Logitech's "game" is easy and it's explicitly stated: they licensed the tech:

I-FORCE™ Force Feedback Technology Licensed from Immersion Corporation.

Also, your Sony example holds no water; you say that Immersion sued them AFTER the original Dual Shock existed on the market, but that's exactly how lawsuits work. You don't sue someone for something that's yet to happen, you sue them after it's happened. It's just like how you don't sue a company for a product they haven't released yet, for the simple reason that you don't know about it or any patent infringements until it's released. I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove by stating the obvious.

You may want to re-read what I said about Virpil. They also have no retail presence and barely any manufacturing capacity, as evidenced by the frequent delays and instant sell-outs, but despite being around for a shorter time than Slaw and Real Simulator, they've managed to sell 10x the quantity. I don't know why you brought up Guillemot or Logitech; I didn't use them at all as examples for sales price vs. quantity sold.

You say that "others" have complained about DirectX and had to work around stuff. What did they say? What did they have to work around? What exactly do you mean by "Microsoft turning out to be the 500 pound gorilla"? Previously, you claimed that DirectX has crippled haptics, which lead me to believe that you actually know something about it, but all you've done so far is give vague statements that have no solid backing. This is no different than telling someone that their car is bad and poorly constructed, without citing any specific reasons. It makes you sound smart without revealing just how little you know. So let's stop beating around the bush; either give a concrete example of how DirectX has bad haptics support, or admit that you really don't know as much about it as you claim to.

And no, I'm not confusing lack of available product for the lack of desire. Rather, I feel that you're misplacing your desire as representative of the market demand. Let's go through a quick history lesson. Force feedback joysticks were never popular compared to the gaming market at large, with support limited to only a handful of titles, almost all in the same genre. Microsoft was the primary driver of FFB adoption; they designed the API and created the first consumer-level force feedback joystick, and presumably implemented it in their flight simulator, though I can't find any info on which game was the first one to have FFB support. They released the Force Feedback Pro in 1997 and the FFB2 in 1998, with Logitech trying a go at it in 2000 with the Force 3D Pro, which by all accounts was largely forgettable. At the onset of the 2000's, it was pretty apparent that the flight sim genre was dying. A major world event in 2001 and Immersion suing Microsoft in 2002 didn't help, and soon Microsoft pulled out to pursue other endeavors. This meant that the main driving force behind FFB was gone, and no company was willing to fill the void for what was then, and still is, a very niche device. Logitech did release the G940 in 2009, which was a curious choice as nothing really was going on in the flight sim world at the time (maybe the release of BS2 in 2008?), but it was a commercial flop and the last joystick that Logitech designed and released as an in-house product.

Cut to present day, and FFB remains obscure. Sure, we know about it due to having hands-on experience with it and being involved with the DCS input/output community, but most simmers only know it as some old out-of-production joystick. Due to the similar naming, some even think that it only uses rumble motors like those in a game controller. Most simmers either don't know, don't care, or don't want a FFB device. Yes, there are people that occasionally ask about it, but mostly in a curious "what happened to it?" way. Although there are still FFB devices being produced, they are exclusively for the GA market and the "big 3" sims, cost $1000+, and aren't really all that popular. This can be seen by the lack of reviews and any real solid, in-depth info on any of them, and the difficulty of purchasing one in some cases (long waiting lists, constantly out of stock, special order, etc). One yoke manufacturer (Iris Dynamics) even pulled out completely to focus on providing linear actuators for commercial clients instead.

So yes, some people want these things, but it's a small and not very vocal minority. Unless you have evidence otherwise, I'll trust my own observations from the past 5 years over your blanket statements.

“Most simmers either don't know, don't care, or don't want a FFB device.“

Ok this is literally the core of this entire argument. Baised on your argument style, do YOU have any evidence beyond personal and anecdotal belief of this? Is there any marketing research you have available to you? Because all I’m reading is a very thechnically minded individual who seems to be baising their demand assesment on prior performance and social media engagement in a market intentionally constrained, and currently only dominated by vaporware and kickstarter good intentions and false promises.

Also why do you think DIY = average person can do? What’s that about?