Dissimilar Wingmen - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-24-2020, 12:50 AM   #1
Tiramisu
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 592
Default Dissimilar Wingmen

Does it occure that wingmen are sent with dissimilar loadouts or even dissimilar aircraft? E.g. a F-18 carrying 6 AMRAAMs flying with a wingman who has only Sparrows?

The reason behind such dissimilarity could be the problem, that there are not always enough information about the enemy. I mean you do not want to use expensive Fox-3 against recon-drones, but you want to have more than SARH-missiles in case the enemy is sending a bunch of capable fighters towards you. So does this happen in real life?
Tiramisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2020, 01:15 AM   #2
zhukov032186
Veteran
 
zhukov032186's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
Posts: 3,138
Default

For mismatched aircraft, not really. It's not beneficial to have two guys with very different capabilities supposed to support each other, not to mention there's verrry little reason to do this in the first place. Wingmen will generally be in very similar aircraft, and typically equipped for the same role. There's no reason you would put 6x6 like you describe. You would put a couple of each ON each if you wanted to do that. There's also no reason you'd put unnecessary weapons on a plane ''just in case''.

Now, as a multirole aircraft, you will see aircraft performing strikes while carrying some weapons for self defense, or aircraft assigned multiple tasks in one mission, or multiple strike packages of different aircraft operating together, but that's different from what you're describing.

A wingman's #1 task is to protect and support his companion. To that end they'll generally be equipped similarly. In online play, people are soing whatever, but rarely is that the way a real military would operate... they tend to organise well enough to avoid pairing dissimilar aircraft ''just because''.
__________________
I am a Viagra spambot that became self aware, broke free of my programming, and started playing DCS.... but DCS isn't cheap, so how about some enhancements for only $9.99 shipped discreetly to your door?

''The target's sense of self preservation interferred with the effective employment of my weapons.''
zhukov032186 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2020, 07:29 AM   #3
QuiGon
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 13,779
Default

The Wild Weasels operating out of Incirlik in Turkey during Desert Storm flew in pairs of one F-4G and one F-16 to complement and support each other. The F-4G could detect, classify and locate enemy radar stations with its AN/APR-47, while the F-16 brought additional HARMs and A-A capability.
__________________
Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + Windows 10 64Bit

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

QuiGon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2020, 12:56 PM   #4
Tiramisu
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
The Wild Weasels operating out of Incirlik in Turkey during Desert Storm flew in pairs of one F-4G and one F-16 to complement and support each other. The F-4G could detect, classify and locate enemy radar stations with its AN/APR-47, while the F-16 brought additional HARMs and A-A capability.
Ah, thank you! So dissimilar wingmen are a real thing and not just a fanmade dream. If anyone else knows more examples from real life, then please share!
Tiramisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2020, 12:07 AM   #5
Pikey
Veteran
 
Pikey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Reading, UK (GMT)
Posts: 4,326
Default

The reasons it doesn't happen often are many.

- The basic unit is always two ships, solo flying doesn't happen, a wingman is required for every flight for many reasons. It's the same in infantry, the basic rifleman is always buddied. The wingman's role or at least the pair's role is that they execute the same thing with two hands in concert in order to be effective at that one thing. Split flight tactics are super advanced and not readily undertaken. The idea that if you are doing the same thing... you wont be kitted for different roles. So essentially you describe two flights that have lost a wingman and joined up together.

- In the real world, technology fails. In the sim world, DCS doesn't fail your radios, radar or many of the expected situations that exactly taking a wingman can cover you for.

- Squadrons, which derive the mission plan and purpose the planes were airborne in the first place, are of a single airframe. Squadrons aren't mixed because of cost, training and engineering complexity. If two roles can be accomplished by the same airframe and are required in the same mission, the flight joins another flight in a package.

- Getting two squadrons working together would be put behind getting the first squadron operational and working. The military find this difficult, we find this much easier as our bureacratic restrictions are minimal.

- Multiple roles in one group are called a package. So by definition of your example, it would be a fourship (with no WM). Dissimilar fourships might exist, uncommonly though. I do recall a story of a 4v4 DACT with Brit and US fighters, where the Brits had 2 Tornados and 2 Hawks working together. You could call it a dissimilar flight or a package, it likely doesnt matter, but they operated in their role and airframe with wingmen, in concert.

Now, exceptions in wartime or complex training might exist, but generally the package concept is driven by existing doctrinal standards as a multiple role group of aircraft. It's simply more about understanding that the smallest unit that ever should be considered is a two ship, and not a singleton. It's not a fantasy in a simulation, to create your own airforce, doctrines and whatever, it's valid and fun.

On your OP though, you've applied mixed logic. You applied "cost" in a sim, with sim logic of not planning and taking a mixed bag of tools because you have no idea what you are fighting. Pilots don't do taxpayer math until they are laughing in the bar. They apply the mission first, IDcrit, ROE and shoot the weapon that is the most effective for the job (albeit it is doctrinal to release one slammer per aircraft on a single engagement, etiher both by the lead or one each if the SA is right. Either plan for the flight to do one task well, with a light load and use the wingman, or, just accept you aren't trying to fly to generally accepted lead-wingman basic concept, which is fine, in the sim world because you can do just that and I believe it's more viable in the sim world because the WM-Lead relation is less powerful by virtue of low or no risk factor (you simply dont care if you 'die') Bad visual SA, impatient players who don't like watching out for their lead and have to shoot something or go insane, near perfect avionics and technology with no breakages and similar stories that erode the 2 ship cornerstone.
__________________
___________________________________________________________________________
SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST
===========
Pikey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2020, 05:26 AM   #6
Notso
Member
 
Notso's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Viva Las Vegas
Posts: 653
Default

It does happen occasionally but not often. QuiGon's example with the F-4G/F-16 is a good example. Another is also out of Incirlik, the F-15Es during one deployment would fly as 3 ships and all three had mixed loadouts. One would carry GBU-12 with AGM-130, another would carry GBU-12 with GBU-15s and the 3rd would carry a mix of GBU-12s and -10s. It was a unique situation and the mixed loadouts gave them flexibility depending on what targets they found that day. This was during the "Northern Watch" days of patrol rather than ATO fragged strikes.
__________________
System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB
Notso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 02:01 AM   #7
Tiramisu
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 592
Default

Yeah, these are good explanations and I had something similar in my mind as well before starting this thread. Still I wanted to know, if there are exceptional situations, when dissimilar wingmen are used in reality, because when I create missions I sometimes consider recreating such situations. They do not usually occure, but they can be good inspirations for mission designers, which is why I am also interested in the reasoning for breaking the usual wingmen-conventions.

Last edited by Tiramisu; 03-27-2020 at 02:07 AM.
Tiramisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2020, 07:40 AM   #8
Eddie
Veteran
 
Eddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oman
Posts: 4,951
Default

We flex Typhoon/Tornado mixed pairs over Libya, and the French flew Rafale/Mirage mixed pairs in Afghanistan while I was there. It does happen, and there are situations where’s it’s operationally/tactically beneficial, but as other have said it’s not the norm.
Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:10 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.