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Old 02-29-2020, 09:01 PM   #11
sgtmike74
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How do you all see AI aircraft being implemented? Would be something like the movie “Stealth” with a Uber jet fighter?

Would be more like a larger cargo craft deploying waves of smaller drones, each armed with one or two missiles that swarms an area?
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:18 PM   #12
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I disagree with Elon Musk completely, AI is no where near able to match human decision making at this time. Such a system is fundamentally limited by the information it’s been given and just can’t compete with a humans capacity to reason and make judgments based on new or unknown input. In other words AI cannot improvise well enough yet for even basic combat sorties.

The future of autonomous aircraft will be limited to low or no risk scenarios where they are not required to make complex assessments or deal with rapid changes in the mission. Missions such as aerial refueling, decoy, EW, and transportation. Maybe one day we’ll see a robot fighter aircraft, but even then, taking the human pilot out of the equation opens up a whole new can of worms in regards to cyber and electronic warfare. The benefits simply don’t balance with the risks. A human pilot cannot be hacked or jammed.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:38 PM   #13
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I do agree that AI might not be quite there yet, but I can imagine that progress is exponential and that AI technology will advance faster and faster.

A human pilot cannot be hacked or jammed, but their aircraft's systems can be. At that point a manned aircraft with no sensors, weapons, navigation etc is just as useless as a hacked or jammed AI drone would be maybe? If drones and manned aircraft face the same risk from electronic warfare, is the solution to make manned aircraft with as little technology as possible, or to use AI drones instead as they're crewless and more disposable than a manned jet?

I can see drones in the future being propelled electrically and using electronic weapons too whether that be for EW or energy weapons. If the only thing a drone needs is energy- no fuel or missiles or shells- then theoretically you could have 'tanker' drones that are basically flying solar panels go about 'rearming' and 'refueling' other drones to the point where drones can fly almost indefinitely. Interceptions would be faster, and you could have rings of drones flying around your country or around a warzone acting as AEW.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtmike74 View Post
Speaking about the ethics. Do you feel it is ethical for a machine to autonomously decide to kill a human, without human intervention? Regardless if that person is an enemy or not?
Put bluntly there are no ''ethics'' in warfare, as much people like to pretend to civilise it. It's state sanctioned murder for political purposes, full stop. As for whether a human kills a human with a stick, a rifle, or an ''autonomous robot'' it's irrelevant. That one dude's still dead, so the method is irrelevant. Having it or not having it isn't going to prevent or ''humanise'' war. People.been clubbing each other with sticks for millenia and never hesitated. This is no different.

Only the political motivation to appease the local populace might change, even then people still can complain about wasted money and foreign deaths, so... probably not that different.
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Old 03-01-2020, 12:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtmike74 View Post
I’m curious on what some here may think of this story about Elon Musk.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-w...137017.article

The whole thing sounds like we are heading towards Skynet.

What do you see has the pros of an autonomous fighter drone?

What do you see as the cons?

Where does all of this AI leads to in the next 20 years?

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Old 03-01-2020, 01:10 AM   #16
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You might as well just blame the whole military industrial complex, not one country. Each country is responsible for its own military, and declaring an arms race is just one way of feeding that industrial complex.
I’m pretty sure militaries would have developed AI in the same way even in the absence of a big threat, using the justification to prepare for the unexpected.

I join the group that thinks fears of AI are overblown, it is just another step in the kill chain, what matters is how people control it. There won’t be some AI uprising where they control the means of everything and production. I actually think it’s pretty irresponsible of people like Hawking and Musk to row fear of AI in the people that see them as a pillar of truth. Extra judicial killings has always happened, it’s just obvious now
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Old 03-01-2020, 09:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sgtmike74 View Post
Speaking about the ethics. Do you feel it is ethical for a machine to autonomously decide to kill a human, without human intervention? Regardless if that person is an enemy or not?
I think the real problem is that waging war will require no buy-in from human military personal, and governments will be able to wage any kind of war they like, even against their own people. That said, what can you do if the opposition is doing it?

I don't know if I've gone political here, but it's kind of political, however it should be okay as long as it remains non-nationally biased or partisan.

Last edited by Emu; 03-01-2020 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:07 AM   #18
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'Somewhat' agree.
For basic interception duties, peacetime or full convential war, a drone has the "potential" to be faster to the point of the intercept and accept a greater amount of risk than human equipped interceptors, but I'm not so sure about 'fully autonomous', ever. There is so much issue around detection and identification, MITL comms being degraded or unavailable, ECM heavy environments, and state level interference with code and chip technology that I can't see a way to guarantee armed drones be allowed to carry out any life threatening persecution of threats with deadly weapons. Maybe the US could sign that off eventually but it's a long way off to say, hey we are giving this machine the ability to kill people by itself AND it can operate without a man in the loop, fully autonomously.

AI is still written by humans, it still fundamentally has a human at it's heart wether it is realtime or not. Whether we scapegoat a developer or a soldier with a rifle, a general or a politician, blame eventually lands on someone human, AI is simply a projection of human intention, but written in a flawed way.
But there can be a use, some scenarios can accept it. I would say any scenario where the human makes the decision to use lethal force and then the machine carries it out, is already abundantly used and "autonomous", in this case, can be extended further and further afield. We already have vast distances across the globe where this has been done for many many years, so much of this is in the wording.
Specifically on fighter jets, I have some doubt. We operate gliders and very small manned vehicles all across the globe. Some of these without electronics. People fly where they shouldn't all the time, wandering across the superbowl, losing comms, no transponder. Visual recognition is not strong enough to be infallible. Without a way to identify a target, autonomy is useless.
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
Put bluntly there are no ''ethics'' in warfare, as much people like to pretend to civilise it. It's state sanctioned murder for political purposes, full stop. As for whether a human kills a human with a stick, a rifle, or an ''autonomous robot'' it's irrelevant. That one dude's still dead, so the method is irrelevant. Having it or not having it isn't going to prevent or ''humanise'' war. People.been clubbing each other with sticks for millenia and never hesitated. This is no different.

Only the political motivation to appease the local populace might change, even then people still can complain about wasted money and foreign deaths, so... probably not that different.
why build war machines when you can build death factories?

more efficient..

and very nazi

war is politics by other means.
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Old 03-01-2020, 01:43 PM   #20
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Anyone not surprised by this? It was said by someone who is in the business of automation. You keyboard/Wikipedia warriors should know that.
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