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Old 01-23-2020, 12:28 PM   #11
Fri13
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Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
Uhm, that's not CAS then, but a classic strike mission. CAS is always a dynamic situation, as you support troops on the ground that are in contact with the enemy. Such situations are way too dynamic to be programmed before you climb into the cockpit.
Ground troops do not always move so fast. And Harrier is anyways operating 15-20km from the frontline so the time you take-off, you are few minutes from the troops you are suppose to be supporting. Unlike the Hornet that is over hour away from the troops.
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Ground troops do not always move so fast. And Harrier is anyways operating 15-20km from the frontline so the time you take-off, you are few minutes from the troops you are suppose to be supporting. Unlike the Hornet that is over hour away from the troops.
It's not about ground troops moving away. It's about the exact locations of friendly and enemy troops that are changing constantly during a firefight. A trench or a rock formation or some other kind of position that is used by the enemy as a fire position can be occupied by friendlies 10 minutes later. That's why CAS missions are extremly dynamic and you have to constantly keep track of the forces moving on the ground, even if you're already above it. That's why it's impossible to pre-plan target positions for CAS missions. Instead you get an initial brief on the current situation by the JTAC when approaching the scene, followed by constant updates on how the situation evolves. The CAS page is very useful for that.
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Last edited by QuiGon; 01-23-2020 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 01-23-2020, 02:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Captain Orso View Post
In Real-Life™ you are also getting targets assigned through your command structure. Target coordinates are programmed into the CAS page before you climb into the cockpit. You just call them up and attack them - very vaguely simplified.
Those would be pre-planned waypoints/targets, IRL they have nothing to do with the CAS page.

Quote:
With this system he can punch them into CAS himself, or use the F10 map to mark location and then transfer them from F10 map markers to the CAS page.
The CAS page is part of the ATHS (Automatic Target Hand-off System), IRL it's a dynamic electronic 9-line text message between the JTAC and lead, who can share the flight's loadout and fuel state and the JTAC can upload target co-ordinates, chosen weapon, etc.

Lead and JTAC edit/update shared copies of the CAS page info (i.e. ingress waypoint) until they reach an agreed version and the JTAC "authorises" it.

Lead then forwards a copy of the "authorised" CAS message to the aircraft that is to carry out the attack.

DCS

The F10 map markers and "RAlt+RShift+8" simulate a JTAC selecting targets and sending CAS messages to the lead aircraft. Editing the CAS page will allow the player to add missing details i.e. choose/edit the ingress waypoint

While imperfect, editing the CAS page allows players to manually fill the CAS 9-line page using info from AI JTAC (it may not be possible for Razbam to code for A-10C SADL like data).

Last edited by Ramsay; 01-23-2020 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Captain Orso View Post
In Real-Life™ you are also getting targets assigned through your command structure. Target coordinates are programmed into the CAS page before you climb into the cockpit. You just call them up and attack them - very vaguely simplified.

In DCS in dynamic campaigns for example or long missions with a constantly changing situation and opposing players controlling enemy units, there would be no way for this to be done for the player. He has to make out his own targets on the map or have their coordinates presented to him.

With this system he can punch them into CAS himself, or use the F10 map to mark location and then transfer them from F10 map markers to the CAS page.
Right, I can go to the F10 map. So why do I need to edit them? Seems pretty edge case.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsay View Post
Those would be pre-planned waypoints/targets, IRL they have nothing to do with the CAS page.



The CAS page is part of the ATHS (Automatic Target Hand-off System), IRL it's a dynamic electronic 9-line text message between the JTAC and lead, who can share the flight's loadout and fuel state and the JTAC can upload target co-ordinates, chosen weapon, etc.

Lead and JTAC edit/update shared copies of the CAS page info (i.e. ingress waypoint) until they reach an agreed version and the JTAC "authorises" it.

Lead then forwards a copy of the "authorised" CAS message to the aircraft that is to carry out the attack.

DCS

The F10 map markers and "RAlt+RShift+8" simulate a JTAC selecting targets and sending CAS messages to the lead aircraft. Editing the CAS page will allow the player to add missing details i.e. choose/edit the ingress waypoint

While imperfect, editing the CAS page allows players to manually fill the CAS 9-line page using info from AI JTAC (it may not be possible for Razbam to code for A-10C SADL like data).
Ok, this makes sense. I'm on board now.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
It's not about ground troops moving away. It's about the exact locations of friendly and enemy troops that are changing constantly during a firefight. A trench or a rock formation or some other kind of position that is used by the enemy as a fire position can be occupied by friendlies 10 minutes later. That's why CAS missions are extremly dynamic and you have to constantly keep track of the forces moving on the ground, even if you're already above it. That's why it's impossible to pre-plan target positions for CAS missions. Instead you get an initial brief on the current situation by the JTAC when approaching the scene, followed by constant updates on how the situation evolves. The CAS page is very useful for that.
That is why the CAS page is very valuable, because when the Harrier takes off, it can slave TPOD straight at the combat area and start looking around while still 15 km away. Listen the radio all the time and pilot knows what is happening.

There is no such dynamic action where enemy and own troops moves 5-10 kilometers in few minutes.

And considering the USA marines style, they are clearing every corner and every window in fear before they are ready to take a step forward without requesting bomb to next shack there is.
You do not need JTAC to give you position in few meter accuracy, 1 km is really enough if there is enough landmarks etc to tell where to go.

And why you can pre-plan the CAS as you have as well standing orders for specific location to attack or defend specific location.

Anyways you are not going to bomb a position that you do not see, or you have not accurately confirmed that you can drop something without visual confirmation. That can be like a forest where you have zero understanding that what is happening as you only get the information over radio for something.

That is the point of the CAS, that you take your eyes out of the cockpit and you look out that what is happening on the ground and you fight among the ground troops but with just better viewpoint.
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Old 01-23-2020, 05:09 PM   #17
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Fri13, sorry but you do not understand CAS, you can get a better picture e.g by reading this good book (I really recommend it, it's good!) Fire strike 7/9 by Paul Grahame.

CAS is all about just 100m distance!
That's why you have to 1000% identify all allied forces before you do anything.

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Old 01-23-2020, 08:15 PM   #18
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Folks, check the first post to see the ATHS/CAS and F10 Map updates that are now being tested.
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by LastRifleRound View Post
Right, I can go to the F10 map. So why do I need to edit them? Seems pretty edge case.
Because some mission creators may only give you coordinates for targets and some not even that.

Hoggit doesn't have any red units on the strategic map at all, not even if they are directly next to blue units, so you cannot use the strategic map to mark targets.

You can go in to free-cam (from strategic map LCtrl-F11) navigate to directly on top of a target, and record the exact coordinates on the location bar, and then create a waypoint for each one, but being able to put them on the CAS page will be much more flexible and useful.
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
That is why the CAS page is very valuable, because when the Harrier takes off, it can slave TPOD straight at the combat area and start looking around while still 15 km away. Listen the radio all the time and pilot knows what is happening.

There is no such dynamic action where enemy and own troops moves 5-10 kilometers in few minutes.

And considering the USA marines style, they are clearing every corner and every window in fear before they are ready to take a step forward without requesting bomb to next shack there is.
You do not need JTAC to give you position in few meter accuracy, 1 km is really enough if there is enough landmarks etc to tell where to go.

And why you can pre-plan the CAS as you have as well standing orders for specific location to attack or defend specific location.

Anyways you are not going to bomb a position that you do not see, or you have not accurately confirmed that you can drop something without visual confirmation. That can be like a forest where you have zero understanding that what is happening as you only get the information over radio for something.

That is the point of the CAS, that you take your eyes out of the cockpit and you look out that what is happening on the ground and you fight among the ground troops but with just better viewpoint.
Excuse me? Are you calling Marines cowards? I got exactly one mk-82 in support in 9 months of combat. And yea if you don't think the situation can be so dynamic as to need to update the pilot you're pretty naive. Or just trolling.
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