Kusch Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25636/usafs-next-budget-request-will-include-new-f-15x-advanced-eagle-fighter-jets-report Roxana Tiron of Bloomberg Government writes that the USAF will include "$1.2 billion for 12 Boeing F-15 X fighter aircraft" in its 2020 budget request that is due to be published in February. The story also notes that pressure to buy the F-15X is coming from the powers that be inside the Pentagon that are external to the USAF itself, which would explain the disconnect over potential procurement program with the service's top leadership... Give me "flying telephone pole" (SA-2)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Called it :) https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=185040&page=2 The F-15X is a monster, don’t think there’s a better option on the market right now for a 4+ Gen multi-role fighter. It’s got everything you could ever want tactically, minus stealth. DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zius Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 I think there are two ways of looking at a combat aircraft: 1) A platform for carrying sensors and weapons. 2) An integral concept (an "aircraft") which happens to have sensors and weapons. I think that 1) is a very common approach, even among decision makers either in the armed forces or in politics. I also think that it wrong and it was proven wrong e.g. in Vietnam. However in this case, the USA failed to produce an affordable modern heavy fighter (if we consider the F-22 a failure, which it kind of is), but instead only produces a modern "light" fighter, the F-35 JSF. There remains a demand for a heavy fighter, but there is no aircraft available, so they continue with something that is, in my opinion, just as outdated as a MiG-21 Lancer or Bison, which is exactly the same concept as this F-15X. Except that, without disrespect meant, the upgraded MiG-21 versions are flown by countries which have much smaller defence budgets than the USA has. Modules: Bf 109, C-101, CE-II, F-5, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Albatros, Viggen, Mirage 2000, Hornet, Yak-52, FC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 (edited) There remains a demand for a heavy fighter, but there is no aircraft available, so they continue with something that is, in my opinion, just as outdated as a MiG-21 Lancer or Bison, which is exactly the same concept as this F-15X. Its nothing like the Bison. 1st) Its not a modernization of an old aircraft, its a brand new aircraft based on an older design. Huge difference because.. 2nd) The MiG-21 Was basically outdated when it went into service. No amount of modernization can fix to any real extent its Payload, Speed, Service Ceiling and overall performance as a fighter. 3rd) The F-15 is still very relevant (maybe not in the OCA role anymore but) in the homeland defense mission, nothing short of a 5th generation fighter can touch it, and as it turns out other countries are either decades away from any real numbers of them, or they're not able to match the Raptor currently. So for the time being the F-15 is still quite capable of carrying out its intended mission. Because the F-15X would be intended to supplement the F-22A, not replace it. Just like the Navy with the F-35C and F/A-18E Blk 3 So the problem for the USAF is not F-15 itself, rather the current airplanes are reaching the end of their service lifetimes. So rather then lose capability by switching to an aircraft like the F-16 or F-35 that simply can't replace the F-15 simply because they never were intended too. Why not stick with both a proven and relevant platform that is both a drop in replacement and much cheaper, then a large heavy 5th replacement like the F-22A that is currently overkill?* *for its price. Edited December 28, 2018 by Wizard_03 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzles Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 12? That's it? That's barely one squadron. Fancy trying Star Citizen? Click here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShackleford Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Good concept to supplement the lack of F-22s. Would be totally unnecessary if we didn't take apart the entire production line that made F-22s though. Just easy to do when Boeing still has F-15 production lines for various foreign buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zius Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I3rd) The F-15 is still very relevant (maybe not in the OCA role anymore but) in the homeland defense mission, nothing short of a 5th generation fighter can touch it, and as it turns out other countries are either decades away from any real numbers of them, or they're not able to match the Raptor currently. So for the time being the F-15 is still quite capable of carrying out its intended mission. This is exactly the philosophy that Western European countries are following, but in my opinion it's very dangerous. Just look at the development speed of Chinese aircraft and other weapons. Their exact capabilities may still be unclear, but only approx. 20 years ago the PLAAF was still operating MiG-17 copies... Now they are building 5th generation fighters and I think that soon they'll be in the lead with regards to fighter technologies. Just as they are taking over the smartphone market, maybe not entirey coincidentally... But yes, with a fleet of F-15's, modernised or not, you can still take out Iran, probably. So if that is the goal, then yes. On the other hand you see that European countries don't have an answer to Russian threats, for instance. Now everybody is slowly waking up, but budgetary compromises need to be made, as usual... Just like in the 1930's... :doh: Edit: sorry if this post is seen as political, it's not my intention. However topics such as this need to take into account the geopolitical situation. Modules: Bf 109, C-101, CE-II, F-5, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Albatros, Viggen, Mirage 2000, Hornet, Yak-52, FC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 This is exactly the philosophy that Western European countries are following, but in my opinion it's very dangerous. But yes, with a fleet of F-15's, modernised or not, you can still take out Iran, probably. So if that is the goal, then yes. On the other hand you see that European countries don't have an answer to Russian threats, for instance. Now everybody is slowly waking up, but budgetary compromises need to be made, as usual... Just like in the 1930's... :doh: The thing is though, it’s not meant to go and achieve air superiority somewhere else. That’s a job for the 5th gen fleet. The F-15X a stop gap for homeland defense, It’s like a squire for the F-22. The beauty is that it can also be used to supplement the F-15E fleet or perform strike missions should the need arise. It’s there for all the day to day intercepts, CAPs and alerts where you don’t actually need the greatest fighter concept on earth to deal with. DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I remember long ago... when the sun was shining... and the stars were bright... all through the night... and 750 F-22s were planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I remember long ago... when the sun was shining... and the stars were bright... all through the night... and 750 F-22s were planned. Yeah and the navy was gonna join the fun :lol: DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra99 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 However in this case, the USA failed to produce an affordable modern heavy fighter (if we consider the F-22 a failure, which it kind of is), but instead only produces a modern "light" fighter, the F-35 JSF. F-22 is a failure? Seriously I'm pretty sure facts say the F-22 is a very capable aircraft. The only real mistake was not buying the full compliment to replace the F-15C. That being said, the F-15 was designed to be the best Air Superiority Fighter in earth. Period. It's design while classified a 4th gen fighter is still better at its "job" than planes designed since because everything designed since has had compromises built into them. You don't get stealth without compromise. You don't get vertical takeoff without compromise. The F-15 was built to be the best fighter possible. Modern avionics do more to enhance its capabilities than stealth or any other gimmicks do for newer fighters. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Primary Computer ASUS Z390-P, i7-9700K CPU @ 5.0Ghz, 32GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 @ 3200Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce 1070 Ti AMP Extreme, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe drives (1Tb & 500 Gb), Windows 10 Professional, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Warthog Stick, Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle, Cougar MFDs x3, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals and TrackIR 5. -={TAC}=-DCS Server Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3, i7-3770K CPU @ 3.90GHz, 32GB G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 @ 1600Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce® GTX 970. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Like the B-2, the F-22 'failed' in terms of affordability because they massively cut numbers. It takes exactly the same amount of development work to build 187 F-22s as it does 750 F-22s and if you divide the cost of that work by 187 instead of 750 guess what. Ditto for the B-2, divide the cost by 21 instead of 140 and same again. The end result is that the F-22 costs what the B-2 should have cost and the B-2 costs as much as an aircraft carrier (nearly). The other factor is that they tried to make the F-22 politically bulletproof by building bits and pieces in 41 different states, which just created a cluster**** that even Eurofighter GmbH would be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Yeah and the navy was gonna join the fun :lol: And the F/B-23 was to replace the F-111. And a navy option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zius Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 F-22 is a failure? Seriously I'm pretty sure facts say the F-22 is a very capable aircraft. The only real mistake was not buying the full compliment to replace the F-15C. That being said, the F-15 was designed to be the best Air Superiority Fighter in earth. Period. It's design while classified a 4th gen fighter is still better at its "job" than planes designed since because everything designed since has had compromises built into them. You don't get stealth without compromise. You don't get vertical takeoff without compromise. The F-15 was built to be the best fighter possible. Modern avionics do more to enhance its capabilities than stealth or any other gimmicks do for newer fighters. The F-15 had it's first flight in 1972. The P-51 in comparison in 1940. Imagine somebody proposing buying an upgraded P-51 (as the best American fighter of it's generation) with the avionics and weapons in 1986... I agree with you regarding stealth and V/STOL, but it's not like the world stood still since 1972 and the only advances made were due to sensors and weapons. For instance the Su-27, especially advanced variants with thrust-vectoring is simply a better airframe. As for the "failure" of the F-22, it's certainly capable, but still cancelled after a quite short and small production run, like Emu explained. But regarding the F-15 vs. P-51 comparison, it may sound ridiculous, but it shows the extremely slow evolution of aircraft, especially since the end of the Cold War removed much of the need for advanced fighters, since the apparent enemies were either small third world countries or terrorists who could not mount any serious opposition beyond MANPADS. Modules: Bf 109, C-101, CE-II, F-5, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Albatros, Viggen, Mirage 2000, Hornet, Yak-52, FC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 (edited) The F-15 had it's first flight in 1972. The P-51 in comparison in 1940. Imagine somebody proposing buying an upgraded P-51 (as the best American fighter of it's generation) with the avionics and weapons in 1986... Your analogy would be correct if we also assume that no other country developed a better fighter then the P-51 and that 1985 studies show that it’s gonna be the Late 2010s before someone gets around to really beating it. What manufacturers are figuring out now is that it’s one thing to build a 5th gen fighter. It’s another thing entirely to design and field new engines for it. A lesson the us navy learned with the F-14. What that means is that while non us 5th generation fighter designs are out there, they won’t be overwhelmingly effective until engine design catches up. So F-15x can still fly faster, higher, farther, and with a bigger load then anything else except maybe the F-22A :) Edited December 31, 2018 by Wizard_03 DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 You're saying that it will be 2045 before there's a significant number of PAK-FAs or J-20s about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kappi Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 it will be 2045 before there's a significant number of PAK-FAs or J-20s about? The plane got a name and it's Su-57. The prototype was designated T-50 and PAK-FA is the program designation. Sorry, but it's really annoying that people keep calling the plane by the program designation. You won't call the F-22 ATF, wouldn't you?:P ___________________________________________ [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Looking forward to it, Belsimtek!:thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Sorry, but it's really annoying that people keep calling the plane by the program designation. You won't call the F-22 ATF, wouldn't you?:P Occasionally I call it the F-29 Retaliator as a joke.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard_03 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 You're saying that it will be 2045 before there's a significant number of PAK-FAs or J-20s about? I’m saying that it’s gonna be the mid 2040s before the current high low mix of F-22s and F-15s won’t cut it, and the F-15 will definitely be inadequate, in most or every category. No one knows publicly the capabilities of those jets but that’s what US Air Force is estimating. At that time the F-15 will no longer be a creditable platform, regardless of updates or redesigns. DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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