Air-to-air refueling

Hi all,

This is my first post, I've been reading topics for a while however.

I have been trying to get to grips with air-to-air refuelling and have spent about 3 hours now behind the tanker trying to get successfully connected and it is really frustrating me.

I am using a Saitek X52 and trackIR 5. I have also altered my axis curves to allow for slightly more precise movements on the stick (which I read was useful on here).

I have attached a video showing one of my attempts in the hope that some of the more experienced players can give me some pointers to work on (you'll want to skip the first few minutes).

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yqu6NRXCkw

I'm certainly no expert at air-to-air refueling so take this with a grain of salt.

Looking at your track two things are obvious to me: One, you are in a hurry to get it done! Impatient

And two, your stick inputs seem to be too aggressive.

Try staying behind the tanker with the entire aircraft in your view, and trimming to level flight, then crawling up with about 1-3% throttle increase keeping your eyes always on the tanker. Once you are in position, try to keep a mental image of what the tanker should look like in your window and try to keep that. I would also suggest turning your curves to to 25-30, it makes a huge difference for the first time, as you get better you can turn it down.

Some other things to think about: Always be very precise and use small amounts of input, keep in mind there is 'lag' on the throttle. Try to 'think ahead', if it feels like you're falling behind, immediately add power, but again we're talking about small amounts (1-3% as mentioned before). Also don't "chase the boom", try to keep in flight with the tanker

Thank you for your reply. I will definitely work on that and will change the curves up to 25-30 as you suggest. I think you may very well be right, that I'd be better off trying to keep in a steady position relative to teh tanker rather than chasing the boom around for a connection.

You're welcome, KillerSam! Welcome to the forums, I'm sure others will chime in with some more suggestions :)

Looks to me like you are trying to chase the boom, there were moments in the video when you were almost there, but instead of keeping the plane straight and waiting for the boom operator to do his thing, you wanted to do it yourself. On the other hand, my attempts look the same, don't get discouraged. It's an ungrateful job flying the A-10C - it eats up your time and take months before you can go owning stuff.

Also, when you finally make it, make sure to do a video and post it here, so we can all congratulate you, making the hard work even more rewarding.

Thanks for the support :D

As silly as it sounds, it never occured to me to just stay level and close and let the boom operator finish the job. I'll hopefully have a success story soon!

KillerSam, take your time and practice, practice, practice. It's one of those things that gets better with time. Took me a while and some playing around with my throttle but once I was able to refuel an entire load it felt great! You'll get there, keep at it.

Also there are some great threads around with some excellent advice from other virtual A10 pilots.

 

and have spent about 3 hours now

 

There's your problem right there! It took me about two weeks of practice 1-2 hours daily to master AAR. Once it clicks though, it clicks. Nothing more satisfying than taking a full bag of gas in one contact, imho. Good luck. You'll feel pretty BA that first time you stay connected for 10 seconds plus.

There's your problem right there! It took me about two weeks of practice 1-2 hours daily to master AAR.

I suspected that might be the case. I'll put some more hours in and see how I get on, good advice so far though, thank you all :)

Good advice all around!

I'd just like to add two things.

First, you kept yawing. Don't do that in AAR. Don't ever do that! The X52 can be locked so that you won't twist the stick, right? You should do that pre-contact.

Second, I remember some very good advice from the Falcon 4.0 manual. If you try to correct three axes at the same time, it is surely going to fail. So you should line up with the tanker and make sure to just vary one axis at a time. If you too far behind, speed up a little bit, but don't correct pitch or roll at the same time - just fly straight and level until the distance is okay for pre-contact.

If you're then too far left/right or too low/high, correct one of these, but don't correct anything else at the same time. Keep it simple, correct one axis at a time and concentrate on keeping the other axes so that you fly as linearly as possible.

But the true secret to successful aerial refueling is... well, you've guessed it, it's practice, practice, practice. :)

And don't be discouraged, aerial refueling is among the most difficult tasks in aviation. RL pilots train years before anyone lets them near a tanker (and you should get the boom operator from your video a new set of underwear, he needs it :D)

Thank you Yurgon - that's an interesting idea (one axis at a time) and I guess it does make sense, but I'll have to try it to see what difference it makes. I expect it means you won't be constantly over correcting your position - which would make things easier definitely.

As for yawing, can I ask what the main reason is behind locking it out? It may sound like a silly question but what in particular makes yawing a bad idea?

Thank you Yurgon - that's an interesting idea (one axis at a time) and I guess it does make sense, but I'll have to try it to see what difference it makes. I expect it means you won't be constantly over correcting your position - which would make things easier definitely.

This doesn't alleviate over-compensation per se. The idea is to focus on one particular axis and get a better feel for over-compensation and how to counter it (or, actually, how to just not do it :)) without being overwhelmed by the amount of tasks to be performed at the same time.

As for yawing, can I ask what the main reason is behind locking it out? It may sound like a silly question but what in particular makes yawing a bad idea?

That's actually a very good question!

I'd say the prime reason is that in the A-10 (but this is true for most aircraft today), yaw also induces roll: Because of the general layout of the aircraft, the yaw-rudders only exist on the aircraft's upper side. So if you input right rudder, the aircraft also rolls to the right (if the rudders were equally distributed on the upper and lower side, there would be no such rolling tendency).

As a result, trying to compensate positional errors in aerial refueling with the help of rudder makes the whole process even more demanding than it already is. Or, in other words, by giving rudder input, you are forced to compensate the rolling tendency with opposite stick input - having to work two axes at the same time, which defeats the idea of working as few inputs as possible.

If you watch your video closely, you'll see how the aircraft almost floats all around the place as soon as you yaw. It looked to me as if you were almost spinning out of control by simply inputting some rudder. I was basically yelling at my screen "Holy Cow, stop yawing, man, the only thing you're going to achieve by that is suicide!" :D

Finally, as you let go of the rudder input, you'll also have to let go of the opposing stick (roll) input, in essence being forced to compensate not just once, but twice, for each time you input rudder.

I can see that trim was only mentioned in the first post. To me it is important to get the proper trim when in the pre-contact position.

If you have mapped trimming of the pitch and roll-axes to one of your joystick's HAT-switches you can try to first 1) stabilize the aircraft with stick 2) trim it to level flight, and then 3) completely fly it in level flight making small adjustments with the trim-HAT (pitch) and throttle. Everytime you change the throttle you will have to change the trim of the pitch axis.

Usually when the aircraft is trimmed to level flight at the correct speed behind the tanker you can just compensate for the engines causing pitch with the stick.

Please note that the pitch trim changes when you open the refueling inlet on the A-10C.

This older thread has some nice tips and pictures as well: Inflight refueling - like dented pig noses and link to interesting part of the AAR manual.

I like too AAR with a slight nose heavy trim.

This is like riding a bicycle once you've learned it it's really easy.

Practice tight formation flying with friends when you fly towards mission areas.

Try to place your wingmens wingtip 2ft from your canopy and keep it there.

Practice turns, descents, change of speeds and learn to anticipate the other aircrafts movements.

When you feel pretty stable try AAR again.

You actually looked pretty darned good for your third attempt. Way better than I did and I STILL have never connected with that stupid tanker.

Since I have no real advice, the only thing I'd say is "Mute that Tacan beep." It's over on the Intercom panel. I actually assigned some key to it and setup a VAC command. I have "Mute ILS" and "Mute Tacan."

-Charles

Yes, I'll be sure to turn the tacan off next time :D

I am about to go in for another flight - focusing on maintaining my position relative to the tanker, with my curves set a bit higher and rudder locked out. I'll keep you posted as to my level of success / failure :joystick:

Im no expert, but as everyone else said...practice, practice, practice. May I suggest you increase the speed of the tanker to around 200K? The airplane should be a bit more agile at maneuvering. Second, have the airplane in trim before starting. Also, fly the TVV and not the boom. Keep your eyes on it, and use peripheral view to make adjustments... works for me at least, Im shure others have different techniques, just keep trying and use what ever works for you.

Hope this helps a little:

PS: Almost forgot...you will never get the correct thrust, so it will be a constant up and down of the throttles, just try to anticipate and make small corrections.

That's actually a very good question!

 

I'd say the prime reason is that in the A-10 (but this is true for most aircraft today), yaw also induces roll: Because of the general layout of the aircraft, the yaw-rudders only exist on the aircraft's upper side. So if you input right rudder, the aircraft also rolls to the right (if the rudders were equally distributed on the upper and lower side, there would be no such rolling tendency).

Not quite! The situation you describe with right rudder would actually cause a roll to the left, not the right. The reason you get a roll to the right in practice is because a yaw to the right will cause the right wing to move slower through the air than the left. As such, the right wing will lose some lift and the left wing will gain some lift which will induce a roll to the right. This effect is much stronger than that caused by the rudders not being spaced equally.

I expect in reality also, the fact that I am using an X-52 without any foot pedals means that I am likely to physically move the stick a little as I twist for rudder - so I am inputting roll.

Once in flight the A-10 doesn't need rudder input very often. It's coordinated with the ailerons automatically

My advice?

Check out Grayson Frohbergs video.

And... try singing while refueling, or 'trololol-ing' like Grayson calls it...

Helps a lot :D

I've watched the video a few times and learned a lot.

Now aerial refueling is real fun!

And if you disconnect - just hit the nose wheel steering button (what ever it is on your hotas).

This will reset your air refuel status lights (just below the standby compass right side of your HUD).

Here is Grayson Frohbergs video:

Just had another try at this. I actually managed to make contact about 6 times, and took on a tiny tiny bit of fuel on two occasions. I think the most helpful thing was paying attention only to the TVV and reference points on the tanker instead of chasing the boom. I'll get a short, edited video of the highlights up shortly. I've seen the trollololol refueling, very funny stuff :D

I 'trololol' everytime while refueling. :P

Yep - the best advice (besides singing loud) : ignore the boom.

I managed to get it after figuring out that the throttle is very sensitive, and trimming to maintain altitude helps tremendously.

The hardest part for me is the canopy frame. I'm used to the F-16's unobstructed view of the tanker.

I found that zooming out helped as I could see the tanker easier and see "the bigger picture".