smart boom tanker operator please.

Since this directly affects air-to-air-refueling capability of upcoming F-16C module, is this planned? (for example with a logic like, if player is within a certain distance of a specific position behind the tanker, then the boom will automatically turn to the refuel-hatch and extend into that hatch)

Did you ever refueld with the F15?

The KC135 works already as it should...

F-16 is different though because it’s farther back and dead center on the spine.

Hope the directional lights on the tanker are up to the job.

Did you ever refueled with the F15?

The KC135 works already as it should...

DanielNL is correct. You shouldn't have to be "In the exact right place" to get a contact. As a retired Boom Operator with more than 22 years flying including over 2,700 in the KC-135...I can tell you it doesn't work ANYTHING like it "should".

It "Works"...but nothing like it does in the real world. In the real world the Boom Operator has the ability to make a contact just about anywhere in the AR envelope if the receiver is stable. Nozzle angle is a factor but sometimes all a receiver needed was the lights to help him get settled down. Making them sweat to get into that perfect position did nothing but frustrate them...which didn't help matters.

NOW...that being said...It took me a couple of years before I was really comfortable with MY abilities and the capabilities of the airplane to make contacts that weren't "Right in the Middle" so I consider the Boom Operator in the game a new guy. He just completed Mission Qualification Training and has about 10 months in the Air Force and about 250 hours flying. He's safe and can get the job done...but still has his moments because he cant believe he's getting to do what he's doing...

Oh Wait...that was me...

DanielNL is correct. You shouldn't have to be "In the exact right place" to get a contact. As a retired Boom Operator with more than 22 years flying including over 2,700 in the KC-135...I can tell you it doesn't work ANYTHING like it "should".

 

It "Works"...but nothing like it does in the real world. In the real world the Boom Operator has the ability to make a contact just about anywhere in the AR envelope if the receiver is stable. Nozzle angle is a factor but sometimes all a receiver needed was the lights to help him get settled down. Making them sweat to get into that perfect position did nothing but frustrate them...which didn't help matters.

 

NOW...that being said...It took me a couple of years before I was really comfortable with MY abilities and the capabilities of the airplane to make contacts that weren't "Right in the Middle" so I consider the Boom Operator in the game a new guy. He just completed Mission Qualification Training and has about 10 months in the Air Force and about 250 hours flying. He's safe and can get the job done...but still has his moments because he cant believe he's getting to do what he's doing...

 

Oh Wait...that was me...

:thumbup:

Thank you so much. If ED feels with us a lot of thirsty viper pilots should benefit from an implementation of a boom operator with... let's say 22 years more of experience than the guy who is actually crawling in the back of those tankers.

@Sierra99

Having the opportunity to ask a real boom operator I've always wanted to know if the connection of a receiving plane with a boom is in some way stabilising the receiver itself?

I mean, is it possible that this connection works for you as a pilot in not having to have the exact thrust position or even stick movement? Like a towing pole to at least a minimum extend? You know what I'm trying to say. My English gets to its limits I'm afraid.

@Sierra99

 

 

Having the opportunity to ask a real boom operator I've always wanted to know if the connection of a receiving plane with a boom is in some way stabilising the receiver itself?

 

 

I mean, is it possible that this connection works for you as a pilot in not having to have the exact thrust position or even stick movement? Like a towing pole to at least a minimum extend? You know what I'm trying to say. My English gets to its limits I'm afraid.

To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site.

But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. I have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (In fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDN'T touch the controls...)

That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle...

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

Hope this answers your question.

DanielNL is correct. You shouldn't have to be "In the exact right place" to get a contact. As a retired Boom Operator with more than 22 years flying including over 2,700 in the KC-135...I can tell you it doesn't work ANYTHING like it "should".

 

...

 

He's safe and can get the job done...but still has his moments because he cant believe he's getting to do what he's doing...

 

Oh Wait...that was me...

Awesome! "Please check the oil" ;) I got to fly on the 135 and 10 when I was in ROTC. Sitting or lying in the boom operators position was way cool. I don't remember if we got to fly it.

Thanks for your input.

To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site.

 

But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. O have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (in fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDNT touch the controls...)

 

That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle...

 

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

 

Hope this answers your question.

:thumbup::thumbup:

thank you again! I like your detailed explanations! that's what I hoped for.

Now, can anybody at ED take that bahavior into consideration when it comes to refuling with a boom, especially before the Viper hits the slot?

@Sierra99 Thanks you a lot for sharing your experience !

Also I have few questions, AFAIK, the boom move around using his wings, but is pictures make me wondering...

This picture show the boom locked without being in his retracted position, where, I think, the little bit on top of the boom near the aircraft serve as a locking mechanism (which I think is surprisingly close to the boom attachment, the leverage forces must be really high at this point...) so what is holding the boom in place here ? Does it have actuators, or the pivot mechanism have brakes, or does the cables maintain it ? (tho I have seen pictures of booms without this cable, but the it might work differently for other tankers models, so I don't know).

How does the stick control the boom ? Is it rather FBW keeping it in place and moving the stick make it move around or maybe the boom position is the same as the stick position ?

Also, can a Tanker fly on his tanker fuel or is it unavailable for it ?

Finally, since you said you can pull the aircraft, I imagine you can probably push it too, and held it in place.

While in DCS the boom is disconnected everytime we get to its extending and retracting limit, but I guess from what you said, and from pictures of the operating post you have where the probe extending is controlled with a slider, that the aircraft don't really push or pull the boom (from video I have seen, only big aircraft does that) and this is basically a boomer action, which may also mean that this keep the aircraft in place more than in DCS, and also that rather than disconnect when we reach the limits, the boom can push or pull the aircraft within reasons.

Something sad, in DCS the boom don't get out of the way of an aircraft who fail to maintain formation, making it even harder to practice since it is easier to crash into it and have to restart from scratch.

And I think for beginners it will be easier to refuel the F-16 rather than the A-10 as pilot tend to try and chase the boom, or than the F-15 where we are further back and offset on the side.

DanielNL is correct. You shouldn't have to be "In the exact right place" to get a contact. As a retired Boom Operator with more than 22 years flying including over 2,700 in the KC-135...I can tell you it doesn't work ANYTHING like it "should".

 

It "Works"...but nothing like it does in the real world. In the real world the Boom Operator has the ability to make a contact just about anywhere in the AR envelope if the receiver is stable. Nozzle angle is a factor but sometimes all a receiver needed was the lights to help him get settled down. Making them sweat to get into that perfect position did nothing but frustrate them...which didn't help matters.

 

NOW...that being said...It took me a couple of years before I was really comfortable with MY abilities and the capabilities of the airplane to make contacts that weren't "Right in the Middle" so I consider the Boom Operator in the game a new guy. He just completed Mission Qualification Training and has about 10 months in the Air Force and about 250 hours flying. He's safe and can get the job done...but still has his moments because he cant believe he's getting to do what he's doing...

 

Oh Wait...that was me...

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: i hope they will hear you. because tanker and its operator should be improved

bump this thread for the real DCS Viper experience starts

Dear DCS devs,

do you have a real/former boom operator as a SME close to or within your team? Or is there a chance to talk to such a person? Maybe Sierra99? ;) (I did not aks him or know him personally, but I reccomend to listen to his experience.)

Simulating RL should help a lot with DCS AAR by boom, i bet.

Just keep up your outstanding job with this sim I love.

Thank you.

A voice would be cool to say forward, back, higher, lower to get into refueling position.

I have the slight assumption that the lights do exactly what you describe (or do the lights only do that after you made contact?).

Would be nice to have and the option to request a set offload, and have the boom operator tell us when the tankers about to enter and exit a turn

I have the slight assumption that the lights do exactly what you describe (or do the lights only do that after you made contact?).

The lights do that as soon as you're cleared contact. Well at least for vertical and forward position.

Thank you for your service!

 

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

Very funny, actually!

To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site.

 

But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. I have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (In fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDN'T touch the controls...)

 

That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle...

 

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

 

Hope this answers your question.

@Sierra99, I've tried, and failed, to find more detail about the actual refueling probe. Is there a physical latch that extends once positive contact is made that holds the probe in place? Something like one would see on an ISS docking port. Or does the probe stay connected because of the receiver pressing against the spring tension (?) in the coloured extension that sticks out below the control fins?

I would love your feedback on this, along with any other funny stories you have about refueling

:thumbup:

 

Thank you so much. If ED feels with us a lot of thirsty viper pilots should benefit from an implementation of a boom operator with... let's say 22 years more of experience than the guy who is actually crawling in the back of those tankers.

How about a module that lets you man the tanker. Easy commands to fly, like set altitude, orbit here or track between these two points, land here etc. And you as a player man the probe and use the radio with virtual pilots. You can then say sadistically; return pre-contact all you want... And fiddle with the nozzle like an overeager virgin looking to nut.

I would do that if mission parameters are set up for refuling.

How about a module that lets you man the tanker. Easy commands to fly, like set altitude, orbit here or track between these two points, land here etc. And you as a player man the probe and use the radio with virtual pilots. You can then say sadistically; return pre-contact all you want... And fiddle with the nozzle like an overeager virgin looking to nut.

I would do that if mission parameters are set up for refuling.

Sounds all nice. But I want a realistic contact first. Like IRL which stabilizes the fighter's speed and position to a realistic extent.