JF-17 Thunder Discussions - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-29-2017, 04:25 AM   #1
probad
Senior Member
 
probad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,848
Default JF-17 Thunder Discussions

Hey guys, some of you must be aware of a proposed JF-17 module by Deka Ironworks of Beijing. While there's a Russian forum topic for it I was surprised there was no English forum counterpart. I suppose it's too obscure an aircraft for some NATO weenies, and Chinese nomenclature is too obtuse to bother with for others, but it's definitely deserving of some enthusiasm, especially as a counterpoint to the F/A-18C.

First Deka's work:



The production values look excellent, I certainly hope they can get this greenlit. China's not known for being open with military information, but the JF-17 being an export offering at least seems like a case for optimism.

History:
Long before LanceR and the Bison came around there was Project Sabre II, a Pakistani initiative started in the early 1980s to upgrade its Chinese F-7s (MiG-21FL) with Western avionics. This was encouraged by the US's interest in recruiting Pakistan against Soviet activities in Afghanistan, and made possible due to the thaw in US-China relationships. Pakistan was concerned about India's procurement of MiG-29s, but they were also running a nuclear program, and so they wanted something effective, but cheap. They must have figured it to be a trivial task to drop in Western technologies into bargain bin F-7s, so in 1987 they asked Grumman to study the feasibility of their pitch and this was what they came up with, dubbed the Super-7:


Calling it a radical redesign is something of an understatement. It was completely rewinged and reengined, so it was very much a different animal altogether. The engine proposed was a PW1120, a development of the F-4's F100, or an F404. As an ironic sidenote, the F404 would see use powering India's Tejas light fighter, the JF-17's nemesis.


Incidentally there was another fighter powered by a single F404 around this time: Northrop's F-20 Tigershark, which had just hit the chopping block less than a year prior to Grumman's study. Some of its avionics would make its way into the Super-7, as well as its windscreen. The nose section could house the F-20's APG-67 but ended up with the F-16A's APG-66. The APG-67 instead would go on to find a home in Taiwan's homebrewed F-CK-1 (not to be confused with the FC-1, aka JF-17), which, in another twist of irony, came about because the US would not allow F-20s to be sold for fear of souring relations with the PRC!
The Super-7 wound up awkwardly close to an F-20 and annoyingly far away from a MiG-21, and Grumman suggested to Pakistan that they'd be better off just buying an existing design. Then in 1989, the political situation turned on its head again with the Tiananmen protests and the end of the Soviet-Afghan war leading into a focal shift to discouraging Pakistan's nuclear weapons tests. This meant the withdrawal of Grumman and the end of the the Super-7, as far as the US was concerned.


China and Pakistan built upon the Grumman study and worked out the Super-7, later called the FC-1, through the 90s. The Soviet collapse left the Russian aircraft industry scrambling to stay afloat, and so Mikoyan wound up enlisted to expedite the development of the FC-1 as well as selling R&D data for their F-16-esque Izdeliye 33.



The first prototype was rolled out in 2003. These early prototypes are distinguished by fixed splitter plate intakes.


In 2006 the fourth prototype PT-04 was rolled out with the diverterless intakes and much enlarged LERXs seen on production JF-17s. Block 1 LRIP started shortly after in 2007, with Block 2 production originally planned for 2011 iirc but only started at the end of 2013. Officially now it's referred to as the JF-17, JF standing for "Joint Fighter" as opposed to domestic Chinese nomenclature of "Jian" (fighter).

The JF-17 is comparable to the F-16 in size, being less than one foot smaller in every dimension. Empty weight is around 14,000lb compared to the F/A-18C's 23,000lbs. Internal fuel is 5,130lb, less than half of the F/A-18C's 10,860lb. The JF-17 was initially powered by an RD-93, a derivative of the RD-33s from the MiG-29. China wants to replace the RD-93 with the indigenous WS-13. Static thrust figures vary slightly between sources but generally are in the ballpark of 11,000lbf dry to 18,500lbf wet, comparable to a single F404.
For BFM numberjunkies, TWR is obviously not stellar. A 2x heaters loadout will not likely break 1:1 static TWR until below 80% internal. It should be pointed out that it's nevertheless an improvement on the J-7's 14,550lbf wet output, which has something on the order of 4,500lbs internal gas and won't break even until half fuel.
Block 1 and initial Block 2's do not have any inflight refueling gear, although later Pakistani Block 2's have received a fairly ridiculous looking fixed probe.


Armament:

This isn't an exhaustive list for the JF-17's armament. Some weapons of note:


PL-5(E-II)
- The Chinese designation for the R-3/13. Not a lot of information for what the E-II version would be equivalent to, but likely aims to match L/M Sidewinder.


PL-12
- Also seen referred to as the SD-10 for export, this is the Chinese ARH BVR missile. The tailfins have a distinctive forward-swept root. It likely uses an R-77 derived seeker in an 8in AIM-7-like package, so while it looks like an AIM-120 it's something more like an "AIM-77".


MAR-1
- This is an indigenous Brazilian anti-radiation missile generally similar to the AGM-88. 100 rounds were purchased by the Pakistan Air Force.


C-802
- Export version of the YJ-8 anti-ship missile. Visually similar to the Exocet, but it's turbojet-driven like the Harpoon.


LS-6
- This designation encompasses a family of JDAM-ER-esque PGM kits.


Hatf-VIII
- Also known as the Ra'ad, this is a Pakistani air launched cruise missile.

The JF-17 has a GSh-23-2 under the port intake in a housing similar to the one on the MiG-21bis.

Avionics:
The radar for Blocks 1 and 2 is a KLJ-7 mechanically scanned planar array radar, capable of tracking 10 and engaging 2 with a typical detection range of a MiG-21-sized target around 40nm. It's also got all the standard bells and whistles of a modern multirole radar, including synthetic aperture mode and nominal ground moving target track capability.

A targeting pod known as WMD-7 has been shown off but doesn't seem to have achieved adoption yet. HMS had been envisioned early on, with a Chinese HMS unit tested in 2006 and Pakistani hoped for fleetwide adoption in 2008, but currently it's been pushed back to (yet another) Block 3 feature.
In terms of defensive aids, the JF-17 allegedly is equipped with a self protection jammer on top of the vertical tail, and a dedicated external EWAR pod is also available as the KG300G. In addition to standard RWR, it has a rear hemisphere missile warning system, located on the base of the vertical tail. Countermeasure count is difficult to assess but at least 36 tubes in a paired array are visible on the dorsal root of the stabilizers with another pair in the corresponding ventral position.

----------------------
Basically, we have a slightly watered down but still modern redfor multirole aircraft. While it may lack muscle, its got a modern multirole radar and a modern weapons selection. Nevertheless while performance isn't eyewatering, it's not bad either; with bags jettisoned and loaded lightly for A2A it's not exactly slouching. The airframe is rated at a "tame" +8G, but the 14G Yankee yank is by no means the only way to fight and win. Low speed performance will certainly be interesting to explore with consideration to its FBW and massive Super Hornet LERXs.
A lot is going to depend on what Deka can get and provide in terms of systems modelling. While access to JF-17 may not be a stretch of the imagination, data on weapons like the PL-12 may be unprecedented. A targeting pod would be a critical feature for strike missions, and it's hard to say if the WMD-7 could be modeled. The same goes for the HMS.

All said and done though, the most interesting part about the JF-17 is its pedigree. For everyone who has wished for a Bison/LanceR module, the JF-17 represents the ultimate ricer Fishbed. For everyone who enjoys the F-5 and wishes for an F-20 module, the JF-17 is a spiritual reincarnation. And by relation to the F-5 lineage, the JF-17 in the end is the bastard cousin the F/A-18 never knew it had.
__________________
hahaha hey look at me i surely know more about aviation and coding than actual industry professionals hired for their competency because i have read jalopnik and wikipedia i bet theyve never even heard of google LOL

Last edited by probad; 07-14-2017 at 12:59 AM. Reason: improved diagrams
probad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 04:28 AM   #2
Vitormouraa
Veteran
 
Vitormouraa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SC, Brazil
Posts: 3,358
Default

Looking good indeed, I wish the best of luck for the team, these guys aren't kidding at all.
__________________


SplashOneGaming is a community of viewers, players, and content creators built on combat flight simulation. Flowing through our veins is years of flight simulation experience in a multitude of different platforms. We welcome and encourage all of you to join us, whether you are seasoned or green, looking to learn, teach, or just trying to find someone to fly with.
Discord
Website
Vitormouraa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 04:47 AM   #3
javelina1
Senior Member
 
javelina1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: WAFB, Arizona
Posts: 2,766
Default

Thanks for the post. very interesting!
__________________

Gigabyte Z87-HD3, i5-4670K O/C 4.2ghz, NH-U12S cooler, 16GB RAM, Geforce GTX 1080 SC, SoundBlaster Z sound card, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 2x 256GB Samsung SSD, 1x 500GB Samsung SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 8.1, TM Warthog, MFG Crosswind Rudders, TM MFD's, Enermax Case, 39" Samsung HDTV, 21.5" Acer VT220 touchscreen (for Helios & Ikarus), TrackIR5, JetSeat KW-908, Oculus Rift CV1, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Virpil WarBRD
javelina1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 05:04 AM   #4
Sweep
Senior Member
 
Sweep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Your Left 7 @3,000ft
Posts: 1,280
Default

Here's the working video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSS9Y3jqB5k

This thing looks amazing. Badass Red Air jet that could be very competitive in most environments. Want!
__________________
"Salt Shaker" - Long live v1.2.2, home of the 10 minute flight
Sweep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 05:21 AM   #5
Revelation
Senior Member
 
Revelation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 1,941
Default

I've been following the development of this gal on facebook. She looks promising and don't count Westerners "out" of this one. If it flies, we buys...

I hope this can be achieved as I'd like to see the red side get some modern ASM/PFM aircraft to go toe-to-toe against the NATO ones in the pipe.
__________________
Win 10 Pro 64Bit | 27" Asus ROG 1440p | i7-6700k @4.54GHz | ASROCK Extreme7+ | 32Gb @3GHz DDR4 | 512Gb SM951 M.2 SSD | GTX 1080Ti | H100i AIO CPU Cooler
Revelation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 05:53 AM   #6
Sport
Member
 
Sport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 485
Default

I hope people are going to realize that this is a 'b-tier' cannon fodder fighter. I would certainly give it a go, but I'm gonna go in with a slightly lower expectation of survival. Much like going into a fight now with the MiG-21 or F-5...
Sport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 06:52 AM   #7
Dehuman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport View Post
I hope people are going to realize that this is a 'b-tier' cannon fodder fighter. I would certainly give it a go, but I'm gonna go in with a slightly lower expectation of survival. Much like going into a fight now with the MiG-21 or F-5...
Modern radar and Fox-3 capable, I think it'll be able to hold it's own. Certainly at least have parity if not superiority over M-2000C.
Dehuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 07:46 AM   #8
Sarraceno
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 244
Default

Looks like the crossbreed between a F-5, Mirage,and a fishbed, definitely looks cool and promising
Sarraceno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 08:04 AM   #9
shagrat
ED Translator
 
shagrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 8,938
Default

I absolutely agree. This is a very interesting jet.

Though a lot of questions and negative comments about a more modern jet seem to be common, as it "can't be realistic, because everything is confidential".
Personally I'm looking forward to this.
If we see what technology is used in this platform it might be not that much "confidential" anymore.

Definitely something to keep an eye on.

Thanks probad for the details and history.

P.S. There is a thread on the German forum, as well, for quite a while
__________________
Shagrat

- Flying Sims since 1984 -
Win 10 | i5 7600K@4.0GHz | 32GB | GeForce GTX 1080 8GB - Acer XB280HK 28" 4k | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | TM HOTAS Warthog custom build extension | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | TM Cougar MFDs |a hand made UFC and an AHCP | Oculus Rift & controller
shagrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2017, 08:46 AM   #10
Sarraceno
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shagrat View Post
I absolutely agree. This is a very interesting jet.

Though a lot of questions and negative comments about a more modern jet seem to be common, as it "can't be realistic, because everything is confidential".
Personally I'm looking forward to this.
If we see what technology is used in this platform it might be not that much "confidential" anymore.

Definitely something to keep an eye on.

Thanks probad for the details and history.

P.S. There is a thread on the German forum, as well, for quite a while
As far as i know, this planes was a project for a modern low cost jet with already existing technologies, i doubt there's something really confidential about this plane
Sarraceno is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:07 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.