Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

Okay, after a year+ of very casual flying fighters in DCS (very little of that was in the 29) I've come to next conclusions:

- ER - most powerful warhead - mostly instakill upon hit, quickly loses energy, very easy to dupe and requires constant lock, which either negates going defensive or sacrifices lock/hit in favor of going defensive. Best use on Su-33 due to more favourable FM and due to it carrying 6 vs 4 on 27

- ET - silent killer, but still easy to dupe once spotted, not as powerful as ER

- 73 - excellent for dog-fight, less easy to dupe as R/T, but still possible. the addition of the backwards-firing version would've been nice

- 77 - TWS2, can engage two targets at the same time, easy to dupe and evade, very weak warhead, quick energy loss.

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Have been testing the 77 in TWS2 against F-5 Tigers today (chose Tiger for being a small plane to see the true effect of 77 - have already confirmed this on Phantoms and Eagles). In cca 20 shotdowns there were only 2 or 3 outright kills. In all other cases the Tigers suffered only slight damage to their dorsal fins and engines, but were good enough to continue their flight. I had to finish them off with my cannon.

Also engaged two Tigers fleeing at 570 kmh while I was flying at 930kmh after them. Let the 77s go at about 10-12km from targets. Both missiles self-destructed at least 1km from targets. Closed to about 6km before releasing next two, this time hits, finished off with cannon.

Conclusion: pleased with the 2-target-engagement (that I never used before) and also disappointed by the weak warhead.

Question: if I lock an enemy player in F-15 using TWS/TWS2 in MiG-29 (or Su) and launch 77s at him, will he get the lock and missile launch warning or not?

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I've also been reading a lot of negative feedback here and on other websites about the AFM for missiles and bugged Russian missiles.

Example:

"Out of the 25 aerial kills, none was by an R-27ER missile, 4 by R-27ET, 1 by R-73, 2 by cannon and 18 by AIM-120."

http://sa-sim.com/rf1-battlefacts-the-black-eagles-reign-supreme/

With the announced AIM-9 overpowering how much of a chance will we stand in our antiquated Soviet 80's relics having to go against not only Eagles with AMRAAMS and these new 9's, but also against Hornets, Mirages, Eurofighters, Tomcats and all the most modern Western technology, while there being NO modern Russian plane developed or even announced? Would it be better to just cut my losses and stop playing online or simply give up DCS?

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Questions:

How accurate are my findings?

Is there any advantage to using the DCS Missile Mod while flying Russian planes?

Do targets locked and engaged in TWS2 get lock and missile warning?

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Looking especially for opinion from the members with more knowledge of this topic, like Rage.

Thanks.

Your findings are overall accurate. All the missiles need tweaking but the 77 as you noticed is in a very bad shape (speed drops way too much compared to other missiles).

The mod is going to give you more range with all the missiles but most servers don't allow it so it's not the best idea if you fly online frequently.

Not sure about the 29's TWS but IIRC when I tested it upon its release it was giving a lock and launch warning. Might be different now though.

I do agree on the total absence of upcoming modern Russian fighters that would counter their western counterparts like the Su-30/35.

Don't give up if you love Russian birds keep flying them, they can still hold their own especially in a TvT setup so teamwork is the way to go and this has been proven many times in previous MP battles.

I know the SU-27 is a awesome bird.. But come on, aren't all fighter jets. You can just switch to another jet till a nice SU-30 or 35 comes out. Don't limit your choices man.

Your findings are overall accurate. All the missiles need tweaking but the 77 as you noticed is in a very bad shape (speed drops way too much compared to other missiles).

Yes, and instead of that getting fixed, it's the AIM-9 getting more powerful because apparently the AMRAAM is not enough. :(

Thanks for your response!

But come on, aren't all fighter jets

I consider this matter more a matter of personal taste, so more emotional, rather than rational. For me only Eastern birds touch that part of my heart, Western very little if not at all... maybe because of my background, dunno. That's why I don't really find any motivation or desire to switch, especially to planes that keep shooting me down aka the "other" ("dark"? :D ) side.

a nice SU-30 or 35 comes out.

Where I come from we have a phrase about ETAs like that. It will be here on the Day of Saint Never. :D

I honestly don't think we'll be getting any modern Russian bird. Nothing has been announced for the next two years at least. While I do adore the 15 and 21, the versions we got are hopelessly obsolete (we could've gotten the 93 or the 97 versions of the 21 instead, but they gave us the iirc 1972 version). If I'm proven wrong nobody will be more happy than I.

Thanks for your response!

Yes, and instead of that getting fixed, it's the AIM-9 getting more powerful because apparently the AMRAAM is not enough. :(

A bit of selective reading there? The R-73 is also getting this update, and not only is it not OP, it is in my opinion not yet where it should be.

Use your flares. There's no such thing as out-maneuvering a modern missile that has been shot in good parameters in RL unless it's on it's last legs. It doesn't care how many g's you can pull. It's not enough :)

I honestly don't think we'll be getting any modern Russian bird. Nothing has been announced for the next two years at least. While I do adore the 15 and 21, the versions we got are hopelessly obsolete (we could've gotten the 93 or the 97 versions of the 21 instead, but they gave us the iirc 1972 version). If I'm proven wrong nobody will be more happy than I.

What do you mean by the IIRC 1972 MiG-21 vs the 93 or 97 one?

Hi Tovivan,

Most of your analysis is right. I dont have much experience in the Mig29/R77 as I haven't flown it in a while due to 3d cockpit/PFM etc and as a squad we really focus on the Flanker.

The issue is this. To really get the most out of the R27ER you need to fly and fight as intended by its designers. That means flying high and fast in a coordinated 4 ship with datalink within the 4 ship. This is so you get the most of its colossal relative range. You'll notice that as you go higher the speed and closing time discrepancy between the 120C and ER increases. At low and medium altitude your advantage is slim. At high altitude the ER has scary speed and range.

So whats the answer? Fly high. Fly fast. With Wingmen. With a functioning datalink. There is however a big problem here. Miss-tracking. The way it works now a combination of chaff/ground clutter/terminal homing G/netcode lag etc etc mean that the ER is woefully unreliable. Even in its initial INS stage where it is not even looking at the chaff/bandit. You should be able to convert an altitude and speed advantage into a first shot advantage. This should give you the upper hand. All the way to the merge if necessary. Unfortunately what happens is that they miss-track when they shouldnt. Online players have cottoned on to this and will use chaff and ground clutter with a little aspect change to negate that advantage you built up. I see more F15s than Flankers now flying low in the weeds just to get within 15km and lob a 120 at you at RTR. You can use mountains to push for a merge. Or you can lob an ET at them and hop for the best. This will work against new players but not experienced guys. If you see an ET launch, you can easily evade it.

This leaves you with few options. Either fly low and in the mountains like everyone else and play the 50-50 game, or fly as a well trained 2/3/4 ship. If you fly with a wingman you can train to support each other such that you stay out of danger but at the same time degrade the bandits SA so that he either makes a mistake and presents one of you with a viable killshot or extends in which case you have controlled the airspace.

There is however light at the end of the tunnel. You'll have seen Wags video about missiles being improved eventually in 1.5/2.0. If they sort out the ER chaff and ground clutter issue than you will have a much better fighting chance as a 1v1 if you fly it right. If they improve the net code such that lag affecting missile tracking is improved thats a bonus as well for the ER that needs a constant lock to target. If we get within flight datalink (ie not requiring awacs/gci) then you can fly much more effectively as a squad.

In summary:

R73 - no complaints, although I feel all IR missiles are quite easy to spoof with flares.

R27ER - Good kinetics but poor and unpredictable guidance. Hopefully to be improved.

R27ET - Not as good kinetically as the ER but can be used against unsuspecting bandits. Massive smoke trail makes it easy to spot and very easy to spoof.

I have a lot of luck with ET's.

I often try to get enemies follow me in the mountains, and when they have lost me I will quickly lob an ET over the mountain and than dive back behind cover.

Most of the time they don't see the missile coming.

A second tip:

Fire both an ER and an ET.

I've tricked people a lot of times using this.

If you manage to get within the good range of the ER and the ET, fire an ER so send them defensive. While they are fighting the ER they will most of the time not notice the ET, and thus the ET will most likely hit as it does not care about the chaffs he is popping against the ER

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

Tested the TWS2 with a friend, it gives lock and launch warnings, sadly. Should it be like that (F-15 doesn't iirc)? If not, will it get fixed?

Also, any idea on the tracking fixes for ER and speed drop fix for 77?

A bit of selective reading there? The R-73 is also getting this update, and not only is it not OP, it is in my opinion not yet where it should be.

 

Use your flares. There's no such thing as out-maneuvering a modern missile that has been shot in good parameters in RL unless it's on it's last legs. It doesn't care how many g's you can pull. It's not enough :)

Are you saying that the R-73 should be even better? If so, in what regard?

Also, the discussion sounds like people want flares to be less effective. Aren't these 1980's missiles supposed to be relatively easy to spoof with flares? Not sure where to get hard evidence on actual flare-rejection characteristics of IR missiles.

Flying air combat over the last week with a friend extensively we noticed something peculiar about the ET. Too many times it fails to lock, even with LA given in IRST, range much lower than launch range for maneuvering target and circumstances being optimal if not outright perfect. That entails shooting at a unaware target from it's 5-7 o'clock at 8-12km range.

The LA is given and missile is fired, but then it simply flies forward ignoring the target, even if no countermeasures were deployed and even with the target being quite close and on 12 o'clock of the plane launching it. The lock probability is right now about 50% for me - and I'm not talking about missile going off because of countermeasures.

Also, the 73 is quite prone to being duped by flares. Can happen that I use up all of my IR rockets on a single AI target even though I have superior position. Then I either have to use cannon or the radar missiles.

Ironically the ER (and 77) has been more lock-and-hit reliable in dogfight this last week than the IRs.

Also, the 73 is quite prone to being duped by flares. Can happen that I use up all of my IR rockets on a single AI target even though I have superior position. Then I either have to use cannon or the radar missiles.

I haven't thoroughly tested this, but I notice that if you give the R-73 enough of a lead it seems to ignore flares better. If you fire it in lag pursuit it will go after the flares more often. It could just be coincidence, but it sort of makes sense when you think of it from the seeker's point of view. A lead shot will mean the seeker sees less flares for less time.

My A-10 hates R73.

R27ER?

I can dodge that

ET?

I can dodge that too

R73? Even dropping all flares at once won't stop it from coming into me...

My A-10 hates R73.

R27ER?

I can dodge that

ET?

I can dodge that too

R73? Even dropping all flares at once won't stop it from coming into me...

You should be able to notch an ER if you're low, slow and perpendicular to it. ETs and 73s should be death from above for an A10. You shouldn't be 'dodging' anything :)

You should be able to notch an ER if you're low, slow and perpendicular to it. ETs and 73s should be death from above for an A10. You shouldn't be 'dodging' anything :)

That's what the enemy wants, but not me.

An ET makes a giant launch trail and is easy to spot because of it. Pop some flares, the ET eats flares like breakfast.

R73, is indeed not very dodgable.

ER is the easiest as it always gives launch warning and it quite easily spoofed with chaffs.

The R73 is not dodgable full stop. It can turn so tightly that no plane with a human pilot has a hope of outmaneuvering it. I'm pretty sure the ET has the same seeker, but it gets fired from further out, They both get spoofed by flares pretty easily, but the R73 usually gives you less time to deploy them before it hits you.

The MiG-21's R3R on the other hand... No smoke (unrealistic), not much in the way of warning because it is only ever fired at close range and AFAIK it is unaffected by chaff (VERY unrealistic). Its pretty easy to dodge kinetically though. The missile cannot turn at more than 15G, so in general a 5G turn will be enough to make it miss, assuming appropriate timing.

An ET makes a giant launch trail and is easy to spot because of it. Pop some flares, the ET eats flares like breakfast.

R73, is indeed not very dodgable.

I guess you've not flown against a person who knows how to use the R-27ET correctly, because if launched in correct parameters, usually, the target doesn't see it coming. ;)

ER is the easiest as it always gives launch warning and it quite easily spoofed with chaffs.

True!!!

I haven't thoroughly tested this, but I notice that if you give the R-73 enough of a lead it seems to ignore flares better. If you fire it in lag pursuit it will go after the flares more often. It could just be coincidence, but it sort of makes sense when you think of it from the seeker's point of view. A lead shot will mean the seeker sees less flares for less time.

Thanks for the tip! :pilotfly: :thumbup:

The MiG-21's R3R on the other hand...

IIRC the R3R has a range of only 7km so if you let an enemy get that close to you without you noticing you've already done a fatal mistake and are dead anyway by the hands of any Russian plane flown by at least moderately capable pilot. That range is nearly in 73 launch range. Much closer and it's a guns dogfight where you'll get taken down by anything from 109 to a MiG-15.

Whate are you flying? American or Russian? Are you trying to stick to the ground or rule the sky from above?

The R73 is not dodgable full stop. It can turn so tightly that no plane with a human pilot has a hope of outmaneuvering it. I'm pretty sure the ET has the same seeker, but it gets fired from further out, They both get spoofed by flares pretty easily, but the R73 usually gives you less time to deploy them before it hits you.

 

The MiG-21's R3R on the other hand... No smoke (unrealistic), not much in the way of warning because it is only ever fired at close range and AFAIK it is unaffected by chaff (VERY unrealistic). Its pretty easy to dodge kinetically though. The missile cannot turn at more than 15G, so in general a 5G turn will be enough to make it miss, assuming appropriate timing.

The Mig-21 is deadly once it has closed the gap, and the R3R is actually spoofed by chaffs, but only when it's almost out of energy....

When it's still at a high speed it'll guide fine.

R3S seems to go for flares quite easily, but sometimes it blindly ignores them and grants me the kill.

I don't fly the Mig-21 that often, but it's a good plane once you get close to someone.

I guess you've not flown against a person who knows how to use the R-27ET correctly, because if launched in correct parameters, usually, the target doesn't see it coming. ;)

 

 

 

True!!!

Most of m launch them at short range.

When I use it, I use it like preferably at an as far away as possible range because they'll never see it coming.

Often I override the launch as the missile can lock after being fired, which is hella useful.

Unfortunately, most players i see don't use it at it's full capacity but use R-27ER's instead.

Personally I think the Russian missiles are a mixed bag.

The R-27ER has some distinct advantages. If you watch how it behaves in tacview it'll become apparent that this is a very fast missile. Its Vmax (~ 3,000 Km/h) is well above that of the AIM-120 and it also has a huge boost motor so it accelerates incredibly quickly. The point is, if you can reach first pole before an F-15 opponent it's possible to expend missiles to control the engagement range. I do wish that the R-27ER had better countermeasure and ground clutter rejection, but as Wags commented in a recent video, missiles are being looked at.

The R-27ET is an incredibly good missile and I wish the Flanker had the ability to carry more than 2 of them. It has the same awesome speed and acceleration as the R-27ER, giving your target very little time to become aware of the launch and to respond. It is somewhat susceptible to countermeasures and does leave a very obvious smoke trail, so rear aspect launches are definitely the order of the day. Combined with your EOS the R-27ET gives you a long and stealthy stick to use.

In my experience the R-73 is fussy. Some times it homes like a spear of death and refuses to be distracted by anything. Other times it comes straight off the rail, sees the ground or a tree, or the sun, or a passing cloud and things "ooh, that's interesting! I'm off in this direction!" and fails to hit anything at all. I suspect that while it has adequate countermeasure rejection it's somewhat susceptible to being distracted by hot things other than aircraft engines.

I've never used the standard R-27R or R-27T. Why would you when you can carry the extended range versions...

 

I've never used the standard R-27R or R-27T. Why would you when you can carry the extended range versions...

To join in on my extremely fun and masochistic 1980's hallucination party, of course :D

One advantage could be that your SU-27 is lighter and more maneuverable with the R and T instead of ER and ET, but they have very short legs.

One advantage could be that your SU-27 is lighter and more maneuverable with the R and T instead of ER and ET, but they have very short legs.

I prefer longer range.

If I can fire before the F15 does, I probably have a higher chance of surviving.

I prefer longer range.

If I can fire before the F15 does, I probably have a higher chance of surviving.

Not really, the f-15 pilot will probably recognize you fired from a far position and will know the ER is coming and isn't a significant threat from that range.