NWS gain is way way to high

After two months of F-5E ownership and flying every day, I firmly beleive that BELSIMTEK has made F-5E NWS wayl to high resulting in nearly impossible to control aircraft at high ground speed during TO and landing. Even the smallest rudder deflection , with NWS enabled, causes very high abrupt nose movement. Rudder control itself is fine , but NWS is just wonky. The other problem is activating NWS with rudder deflection causes an immidiate jerk to the deflected side.

Overall, NWS, works badly in F-5E as it is currently developed.

Do you use curves on the rudder input? That helps a lot.

After two months of F-5E ownership and flying every day, I firmly beleive that BELSIMTEK has made F-5E NWS wayl to high resulting in nearly impossible to control aircraft at high ground speed during TO and landing. Even the smallest rudder deflection , with NWS enabled, causes very high abrupt nose movement. Rudder control itself is fine , but NWS is just wonky. The other problem is activating NWS with rudder deflection causes an immidiate jerk to the deflected side.

Overall, NWS, works badly in F-5E as it is currently developed.

You shouldn't be using the NWS at high ground speed. Rudder alone will give you enough authority to steer the plane. Jut line up carefully before you start your takeoff run.

[…]The only bug in the NWS system is that the nosewheel doesn't automatically center when you release the NWS button.

Is that confirmed ? I must confess that I had a very hard time while training my TO during the first weeks. The only solution was indeed, to customize the curves of the rudder input.

No I respectfully disagree/ NWS implementation is poor. It is not a bug, as software does not crash, but the implementation is very bad. Landing with rudder deflection, and having to keep that deflection to keep aircraft rolling down the runway, makes it impossible to prevent a shimy and slide, when speed drops low enough for rudder to start loosing efffectiveness, and activating NWS. As soon as NWS is activated (say at 60 knots) there is sudden jerk to the side that is impossible to compensate for, without aircraft sliding. The culprit is NWS gain, the tinniest deflection (and I mean tinyest) causes overly large NWS steering .

My rudder curve is set to 25. But NWS bad behavior remains regardless of rudder curve. Belsimtek, needs to take it back into the shop and give it another look. It is really that bad.

A-10C, F-15C have excellent and correct NWS behavior.

When lining up, it is usual to make sure your nose wheel is straight by taxiing forward a few metres after aligning with the centreline before releasing the nose wheel steering button.

Do that, and you won't need to use the nose wheel on the take off roll as the airspeed soon reaches the point that the rudder authority takes effect.

Not just NWS, the rudder axis in general is hypersensitive, needing insane curves. The problem is stronger with NWS because the input is amplified there. If I set the F-5 to the highest curve value for any of the other DCS modules that I have, it is impossible for me to control it safely in the takeoff and landing runs because I am incapable of doing smaller inputs with my pedals.

Well, once again , with respect, I call BS. The aircraft can be lined up perfectly on runway, and as it accelerates it starts to drift to one side or another. Above 50 and below 70 a rudder needs to be used, or aircraft will run off the runway. So in this speed gamut, where NWS is still needed, and rudder begins to have effect, any deflection of the rudder to keep ac straightdown the runway, causes nose jerk to the side, requiring correction. A tiniest rudder correction causes sideways jerk, and ac either runs off the runway or worse it spins like drifting car. The situation is amplified at landing. So I am telling you and BELSIMTEK. NWS is messed up. It could be gain, or it could be mass friction interaction between wheels and runway. Whatever it is, it is messed up. After 2 months of F-5E, and 5 years of DCS and A-10C, FC3, and MIG21, I am pretty sure NWS handling is just wrong. Other users seem to having similar issues.

So it is pointless to defend the indefensible. BELSIMTEK did a great job with F-5E. But they got NWS and ground handling wrong slightly. It needs to be fixed.

Try landing it without drogue chute with 1/4 fuel, no weapons, 180 knots approach, 150 kn at threshold, 135-140kt touchdown and landing run. Rudder curves do not solve the problem. Mine are set at 25, which is high. But it can be straight linear slope and skidding problem remains.

A-10C, F-15C, SU-33, SU-25, SU-25T all implement NWS correctly. If DCS F-5E was implemented in RL F-5, the aircraft would never get certified. It would be too dangerous.

[…]with respect, I call BS.

Take a deep breath.

While I experienced the problem you mentionned at TO (problem that I solved by practicing), I never had any problem at landings as long as I didn't try to use NWS until my aircraft reach the taxiing speed to clear the runway.

You can find a ton of videos on Youtube of people taking off with the F-5 and not experiencing the drift (just check

I have SAITEK (now Logitech) ProFlight pedals and X56. Stick rudder is disabled. System works great with A-10C, KA-50, UH-1, MIG21, and FC3 for NWS control. But in F-5E it is just terrible. Once the shimmy begins, NWS control is lost, aircraft literally skids sideways down the runway into grass, and I am just along for the ride, pedals or wheel breaks have no effect. I am not locking the wheels, wheel break does not exceed 50%. Shimy and sideways skid happen on almost every landing attempt. On landing with touchdown speed of 140 kt, without NWS, the aircraft pulls to left, I compensate with rudder. As aircraft is slowing down, rudder has less and less effect, and aircraft still is pulling to left(sometimes right), at around 80 knots. At 70 rudder has no effect at all, the aircraft is still pulling to the side. Around 65-60 I have to activate NWS, or ac will go into grass at high speed. With wheel break at 50%, and chute open, I activate NWS. AC immediate jerks to the side and goes into sideways skid, regardless of what I do. So I am telling you, and BELSIMTEK, who are willing to listen. NWS is messed up. Perhaps it has to do with nosegear failing to center, or flight model mass/friction interaction of active rigid body with passive rigid (runway) is faulty. I do not know. But I do know that it is not working right, where other modules with detailed NWS(A-10C, and Mig21) work fine.

I'm willing to think that's something wrong on your side too. If the NWS was faulty as much as you describe, I believe this section and this thread would be flood with complaints. Obviously that's not the case.

Dave, did you looked at the link I provided in my last post ? You could see what the majority of us experience regarding the NWS. Hope you'll find a solution asap ; it's infuriating to no be able to fully enjoy a module.

I agree that NWS isn't needed at take-off and landings, but the NWS has always struck me as being extremely sensitive, even during normal taxi speeds.

You can push hard right rudder, tap the nose wheel steering button, and you will have hard right nose wheel steering instantly. It doesn't even seem physically possible.

Rudder dead zone, actually makes things worse. As rudder deflection is not even registered by F-5 untill it is out of dZone, and when it does, the sideways jerk, and skid happen even faster and more violently. I do not understand how an aircraft can skid sideways for what seems like 1/2 KM, without gear collapse.

My setup is working fine. In UH-1H antiTorque pedal control is excellent. In A-10C it is likewise. In Mig-21bIs rudder use for differential breaking is likewise very good. SU-33D, F-15C, SU-25T, and SU-25, all modules that have 'realistic' FC3 ground handling the control is precise. The rudder control of F-5E is likewise very good in flight, and likewise excellent at runway TO/L speeds to keep AC in straight line above 80 knots. Only when F-5E NWS is activated do the problems begin. I lay this at feet of BELSIMTEK. I am not bashing them. I am very fond F-5E module, only the NWS behavior at high speeds during TO/LN is the issue. This could all be related to oft experienced NWS center-fail issue. It is verifiable. At 60 knot, on runway, activate NWS, and do slight radar deflection. THe aircraft will pull hard. Release NWS, with some rudder deflection, then center rudder. The NWS front gear is still turned, and ac will go into skid, spin or run off the runway. Or , at 60knots, on runway, with NWS off, apply rudder deflection. Then turn on NWS. The aircraft will immediately jerk, shimmy , skid, and spin, as NWS front gear instantaneously turns to rudder deflection. But because the gain on NWS is absurdly high, a small rudder deflection, yielding tiny aerodynamic yaw effect, has dramatic abrupt and uncontrollable gear turn rate. In RL this would get AC decert. NWS systems have variable gain base on ground speed with weight on wheels. Belsimtek's implementation of NWS in F-5Eis faulty.

Well once BELSIMTEK fixes NWS F-5E will be even more enjoyable to simfly. Now if they can add an ECM pod and increase countermeasure count, and plumb outer pylons for AA missiles, and allow AIM-9M carriage, then F-5E would be late 1980's, 1990's accurate, and have some chance of survival. Though I was able to successfully evade SA-8 with flares and vertical evasion, two times. Against SA-10, SA-11, SA-15, and SA-19 , I can't do it, aside from not entering engagement zone.

Well once BELSIMTEK fixes NWS F-5E will be even more enjoyable to simfly. Now if they can add an ECM pod and increase countermeasure count, and plumb outer pylons for AA missiles, and allow AIM-9M carriage, then F-5E would be late 1980's, 1990's accurate, and have some chance of survival. Though I was able to successfully evade SA-8 with flares and vertical evasion, two times. Against SA-10, SA-11, SA-15, and SA-19 , I can't do it, aside from not entering engagement zone.

You'll find that even modern planes IRL have MASSIVE issues with dealing with SA-10, -11, -15 and -19 and most won't allow them get close to an area where these are operating.

I use differential wheel breaks a little if needed , in the first 1/3 of the run... you just need couple of touches, ... Once at 70-80, you should bealigned, and rudder is enough.

Are you releasing all pedal input before applying NWS? From what I understand when landing you engage NWS with the rudder pedals not centered which will pretty much cause EXACTLY what you are describing.

Also SA8 are evaded with chaff not flares, so it was luck that saved you and no f5 ever in its operational life was meant to counter high performance SAMs....

So why, if anyone knows, did Belsimtek implement NWS in such a faulty way? Even worse, why it hasn't been fixed?Something like this is pretty obvious , to make it through alpha and beta phases.

...except that the consensus seems to be that it is not faulty.

I beg to differ. With respect of course. The excessive sensitivity combined NWS self-centering issue is faulty. No RL NWS would be developed that way. If it had, F-5's would have had a high mishap rate on landing and TO.

The steering is ok, it's the fact that the nosewheel doesn't automatically center when you release the NWS button that is highly unrealistic and creates lots of unnecessary troubles.

The hydro system that controls the nose wheel doesn't auto-center the way you might be expecting. IRL the pilots depress and release the button with the pedals centered. If you taxi and takeoff/land properly then this does not cause any issues or troubles.

I beg to differ.

...yet present no tangible and unequivocal evidence supporting your claim, only opinions. Meaning there're actually no grounds for a change, since opinions don't count - and shouldn't.

I beg to differ. With respect of course. The excessive sensitivity combined NWS self-centering issue is faulty. No RL NWS would be developed that way. If it had, F-5's would have had a high mishap rate on landing and TO.

From all you have written here it appears that you have a habit of large nws inputs on ground at high speed and or not centering your rudder when applying nws. The result being pretty much what you have. Runway excursions and dangerous oscillations.

All aircraft even the most modern ones need to be taxied for a short distance to align with the centerline on the runway. Even with modern steer by wire systems it is standard procedure.

I suggest you turn rudder stiffness all the way up on your pedals and give it a go.

I beg to differ. With respect of course. The excessive sensitivity combined NWS self-centering issue is faulty. No RL NWS would be developed that way. If it had, F-5's would have had a high mishap rate on landing and TO.

I have been flying the F-5 for some time now, and have never had any real issue with the airplane during takeoff. Taxi can be a little frustrating until you learn when to press the NWS button, and how much input you need to apply to the rudder pedals to make your turn and then straighten out again. For takeoff, I taxi forward at VERY LOW SPEED to ensure the nose wheel is straight. I don't even use the NWS to line up the wheel. I advance the throttles while TAPPING the brakes to keep straight until rudder authority, and go into burner. I never use NWS during the takeoff roll.

During landing, I pop the drag chute and roll out. Once I lose rudder authority, I TAP the brakes until I feel I can SAFELY use the NWS TO EXIT THE RUNWAY. My experiences might be very different from most others, mainly because I actually do the TRAINING MISSIONS in order before I try to actually fly the aircraft I'm learning!

My suggestion is that you practice the TAXI, TAKEOFF, AND LANDING missions until you feel relatively proficient without phases. THEN try to fly the aircraft.

I have never used ANY curves on ANY of my aircraft, including the Huey or Gazelle.

I didn't use any curves for a long time as well but in the end I had to accept the fact that if the (joy)stick length/travel and/or rudder travel is noticable less than on the real plane, a curve is necessary to achieve acceptable realistic handling.

 

The advantage is that once you've got used to the twitchy handling without curves, with e.g. a 25% curve handling becomes more realistic and much easier at the same time.

I hear you, and agree that you should use what feels best to you. I'm not judging at all. My choice to not use any curves or nondefault saturation is just that, my choice. My main suggestion is for the OP to do the training missions until he (or she) feels comfortable with the aircraft. Don't complain that something is off unless you've actually flown the real aircraft, or unless someone who has actually flown the aircraft flies it in DCS and says "This isn't right. The real airplane ...." Practice the training missions and instant action until you can do it. For example, While I can fly and land all of my tricycle gear airplanes pretty consistently, I suck at landing my tail draggers and rotorcraft consistently without killing myself. However, I don't blame the flight model for having too much bounce in the tail draggers, or collective too sensitive in the rotorcraft. It probably took about 100 smoking craters before I could consistently get the Fw-190D-9 in the air, and I still have trouble at times. I've read posting and watched YouTube videos by pilots who have actually flown them and have said they're the most accurate out there.

Another suggestion is to spend the $10 U.S. and buy the F-5 Aggressor Basic Combat Maneuver Campaign. I can guaranty you'll get better.

Practice, practice, practice! You'll get better.