Fortnite vs. Apple and Google - Internet’s first war

Internet’s First ‘World War’ LOL

This is a huge move....

Quick look.

Why Fortnite got kicked off the Apple and Google app stores

Why Epic Games is suing in response

Why this was all very clearly planned by Epic Games

Why Apple and Google should be nervous about anti-trust

Why this is about a much bigger future than just a single game!!

Quote

"Epic countered by filing lawsuits against both companies. It's not seeking money from either company, just that they repeal what Epic considers the companies' monopolistic practices.

The filing argues that Apple, in charging a 30% fee to publishers, take 10x more than companies like "PayPal, Stripe, Square or Braintree, which typically charge payment processing rates of around 3%."

End Quote.

Valve steam should be next or could be forced if laws get change from this?

30% is extortion.

https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnite-banned-by-apple-and-google-everything-you-need-to-know/

30% is the industry standard, as evidenced by everyone charging that (Google, Apple, Steam, etc, notice it's EVERYONE) It's the same cut ED takes from 3rd parties as well. PayPal etc is not a ''marketplace''. They are a payment processing system. Not even remotely the same thing as GooglePlay or the AppleStore, and therefore not even relevant to the topic.

This isn't news or anything remotely surprising. They're free to have their own marketplace. Which they do. If they want to use somebody else's marketplace, they have to pay the fee they stipulate.

Welcome to a Free Market economy. When doing business with someone, you pay an agreed upon rate. Or you can choose not to do business with them and do your own thing.

The lawsuit will be about access to "-------" phones, marketplace etc and if it's a LARGE monopoly. It is.

Epic must think they have an antitrust case and are willing to take it all the way and have the $ to do so.

I think good on them, put it out there and see what happens.

Edit:

Lawsuit https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

6.Epic brings this suit to end Apple’s unfair and anti-competitive actions that Apple undertakes to unlawfully maintain its monopoly in two distinct, multi billion dollar markets (i) the iOS App Distribution Market, and (ii)the iOS In-App Payment Processing Market(each as defined below). Epic is not seeking monetary compensation from this Court for the injuries it has suffered. Nor is Epic seeking favorable treatment for itself, a single company. Instead, Epic is seeking injunctive relief to allow fair competition in these two key markets that directly affect hundreds of millions of consumers and tens of thousands, if not more, of third-party app developers.

Worse for Apple

Through its control over iOS,and through a variety of unlawful contractual restrictions that it forces app developers to accept, Apple prevents iOS users from downloading any apps from any source other than Apple’s own storefront, the App Store.

The argument they're hinging on is trying to prove that Apple's/Google's platform == an open public market, and therefore they're facing unfair barriers to entry.

I think they'll struggle though, for the same reasons zhukov032186 states: it's a private platform.

Just to clarifiy though, Epic got themselves kicked off Google, as they broke the TOS by putting their own direct purchases into the app. They knew it was against TOS, but went ahead anyway. It was a planned move. Lawsuits don't appear overnight.

The lawsuit is really all about the fact they want to cut out the 30% "scalping" and have all the microtransaction money for themselves. It's pure greed.

I hope Google and Apple actually disable the apps on people's phones with a message "disabled due to pending legal action", as that'll hurt Epic more.

Either way, this thread'll prolly get 1.15'd.

The argument they're hinging on is trying to prove that Apple's/Google's platform == an open public market, and therefore they're facing unfair barriers to entry.

 

I think they'll struggle though, for the same reasons zhukov032186 states: it's a private platform.

 

Just to clarifiy though, Epic got themselves kicked off Google, as they broke the TOS by putting their own direct purchases into the app. They knew it was against TOS, but went ahead anyway. It was a planned move. Lawsuits don't appear overnight.

The lawsuit is really all about the fact they want to cut out the 30% "scalping" and have all the microtransaction money for themselves. It's pure greed.

 

I hope Google and Apple actually disable the apps on people's phones with a message "disabled due to pending legal action", as that'll hurt Epic more.

 

 

Either way, this thread'll prolly get 1.15'd.

Greed? Greed by google and Apple taking "everyone's" profits yes.

This is about the monopoly with the Iphone's really. It's way over manipulated by Apple and they cannot go install at X website.

Think about if we were not allowed to install and buy from ED's web store, only on Steam. (Or only at Microsoft) Would that be ok?

That's a case right there I believe and will hold up. Even if that just gets changed they have won big time. They have 100 million downloads or something, so they have customers lol.

Good opinions tho, lets see what happens here.

1.15...? This is in Chit Chat and can perhaps effect laws relating to DCS. Steam valve etc.

This will all become way more decentralized anyway over the next few years. Now blockchain is coming at the banking system and internet head on.

I hope Google and Apple actually disable the apps on people's phones with a message "disabled due to pending legal action", as that'll hurt Epic more.

If they did that - they'd have a huge PR issue, and the lawsuit might end up being the least of their issues.

If people can pay for products and then Google and Apple decide that they're going to disable them remotely down the track - there's a huge trust issue at play right there. Especially with Google. Who would buy through their app store again vs buying direct and not having that risk? (Different with Apple as it's not an option.... yet).

To use a different example - could you imagine the fallout if ED reaching in and disabling one of our 3rd party purchases we've paid for, and have been using for ages, designing campaigns for? Trust would be completely destroyed.

I can't see it happening with Google or Apple, and I would never want to see it happen.

30% for doing nothing is a rip-off. By Apple, Steam and all the rest (including booking.com and likes)...

All they do is make a platform, which is not expensive to put together and operate, aggregate interest from public and charge it.

It's same in bookstores and everywhere you go.

30% for doing nothing is a rip-off.

Except it's NOT ''doing nothing''. It makes you visible. That's the whole POINT. You're paying so that people even know you exist in the first place. We're not talking rocket science here, it's the same thing the drives EVERY market, whether Apple, Steam, or your local Wal-Mart.

You can take a larger percentage of individual sales, or a smaller percentage of bulk sales.

100% of 10,000 sales.

70% of 500,000 sales.

Which scenario nets more money?

That marketplace IS the service. That IS the thing they're doing. Jeez, with the way people fail to understand basic business concepts, it's no wonder a majority of businesses fail in their first five years. They just can't understand how that money doesn't materialise in their bank accounts @@

Also, bear in mind, once you've produced the product and put it on that marketplace, your expenses don't magically increase from what they would have been had you NOT done that... you're just drawing a vastly increased revenue stream for little/no additional effort. You just have to SHARE that revenue stream with the marketplace.

It's definitely not doing nothing when you consider the cost of actually running the platform too.

Serving the hundreds of millions of users isn't cheap or easy.

I'm in that narrow age group that grew up with computers, but not with tablets and smartphones. So for me the problem with apple's and Google's app stores is very clear to me. If I want to create an application for your PC I can sell it to you directly. I can't do that for your phone or tablet, and that is wrong. It is apple and Google that are interfering with the free market.

@gavagai

Good point, especially with Apple. Their closed environment makes that very awkward.

With Android/Google, however it's not so bad. Yes, they do have a marketplace integrated with the phone, but you CAN download stuff directly off the web if you want, cause I've done it before. It's just 99% of stuff goes through the play store. It is possible, though.

Good to know. Seems to me it is a better case against Apple than Google, then.

Guess that means the Epic Games Store is doing great still.

I think the requirement on iOS that you must use Apple's payment system - and they take their 30% pound of flesh - is a huge problem and I say that as a recent convert to iOS. It cripples apps like Kindle because unlike on Android you can't buy books in the app itself because Amazon, rightfully, doesn't want to pay that tax. And it's a relatively recent requirement over the course of iOS existing and at the time was seen as extremely consumer and developer hostile.

But, having said that, I think a lot of this also includes the parental protections in Apple and Google's payment processing and Epic makes obscene amounts of money off of kids, who don't have a firm understanding of money, buying tokens for in-game items not realizing how much money they're spending. If Epic is processing the payments then they can laugh at the parents all the way to the bank, while Apple and Google locks the payment system after a short period and might perform a fraud-based chargeback if its challenged.

Wars will never change. They're being run by jealous and zealous preschool-children who happen to be at adult age, they're always solely about money, economy and business and they'll either be won on the battlefield or in the court. Welcome to reality.

Wars will never change. They're being run by jealous and zealous preschool-children who happen to be at adult age, they're always solely about money, economy and business and they'll either be won on the battlefield or in the court. Welcome to reality.

Yeah, so many more Europeans had the chance to learn German during WWI.

That would have probably avoided WWII altogether...

I find it interesting that Epic can't have their own in-app purchases to cut out the middle man while subscription based services like Netflix and Spotify collect 100% of their service fee externally and then offer a completely free app which would leave me to believe Google and Apple get absolutely nothing and yet that doesn't violate the TOS.

Yeah, so many more Europeans had the chance to learn German during WWI.

 

That would have probably avoided WWII altogether...

????

Germany is the leading state of the EU. I think they won after all.;)

I find it interesting that Epic can't have their own in-app purchases to cut out the middle man while subscription based services like Netflix and Spotify collect 100% of their service fee externally and then offer a completely free app which would leave me to believe Google and Apple get absolutely nothing and yet that doesn't violate the TOS.

Hmmm.... I never thought about that, but it does indeed seem to be an easy to exploit loophole. Just do your ''purchases'' offsite and make the app itself free, effectively a launcher like with 90% of games. With that in mind, it further erodes the legitimacy of the complaint. They want the app stores to handle ALL the footwork, but are grousing about their cut lol I foresee their lawsuit going into a flatspin.

@gavagai

Heh, they took the long way 'round through Belgium again :p

Things are heating up LOL.

"Apple removed Fortnite from the App Store and has informed Epic that on Friday, August 28 Apple will terminate all our developer accounts and cut Epic off from iOS and Mac development tools. We are asking the court to stop this retaliation."

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf

If you think about it. Steam Valve are quite good and have no problems letting you do your own thing after using their platform for getting customers. They still take their 30%, then their happy for you to port them over to standalone or whatever and buy off your website. Lot better practice.

Hope this ends up forcing Apple to do the same and open up that Phone platform, ecosystem etc.

Tho I really like the way Apple handles software quality and overall integrity I do see the point in controlling a market, borderline to being accused to run a monopoly.

30% is a large cut. I would not give 30% just for being allowed to participate.

Epic, sue them in the EU, those courts really don't like the monopoly idea at all, see MS IE law suit et al.