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Old 02-13-2020, 03:44 AM   #51
bkthunder
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Originally Posted by BIGNEWY View Post
A reminder to all here, moderation is not for public discussion so please refrain or PM one of us.

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Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome. Additionally, to bring up a particular issue repeatedly after it has already been acknowledged will be considered "trolling" - in such cases a warning will be issued to the author and the post will be removed.

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Sorry but that’s a bit hypocritical IMO.
Have you questioned why there is harsh criticism and negative feedback in the first place?
Why does the community become “toxic” against a particular product / developer?
I think there is enough diversity in age, nationality and background of those being “toxic” to at least safely assume there is not a particular demographic that just so happens to hate Razbam for whatever pre-conceptual reason, other that being genuinely dissatisfied by the product they have bought.

I repeat it: the PRODUCT that they BOUGHT.
Razbam is a business, not a charity. We are customers, not donors, even though we are being treated as such.

I mean, I get it that this is all a niche and we have to be good to each other etc. but let’s be honest, if you went out and bought a washing machine that doesn’t work properly, you’d call up the shop and complain. And if said shop came back with “constructive criticism” excuses you’d start to be a little bit mad.
Why the common business-to-consumer logics should not apply to DCS quite frankly baffles me.
And yes, I know, it’s EA etc etc etc. but that’s getting pretty tired as I am sure you can tell (even though you can’t admit it within these premises).
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by bkthunder View Post
[…]And yes, I know, it’s EA etc etc etc. but that’s getting pretty tired as I am sure you can tell (even though you can’t admit it within these premises).
I just want to point out that in Razbam's case, not all their products are in early access. The Mirage, at least, left EA for over a year if I'm not mistaken. What we need to do as customers is to vote with our wallets, this is the only viable way to change the course of the current development policy within DCS World.

Complaining every day won't achieve anything. We need to continue to report the current bugs found in our planes on a regular basis or bump up a thread that has been forgotten for too long until these bugs are added to the bug tracker. If someone asks for the current state of a plane, reply in a courteous manner and point out to the various topics describing the problems affecting the module, then let this person makes his own choice.

Being over critical is not the way we'll get our modules being completed. Next time you are hyped by a new module announcement, just reflect on the past work of the developers. Did they get their previous modules out of early access ? How long did it take ? Is the developer communicative, straightforward and transparent with its customers ? These three simple questions should certainly help you to make the right choice and perhaps prevent you from joining the dissatisfied crowd.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:16 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bkthunder View Post
Sorry but that’s a bit hypocritical IMO.
Have you questioned why there is harsh criticism and negative feedback in the first place?
Why does the community become “toxic” against a particular product / developer?
I think there is enough diversity in age, nationality and background of those being “toxic” to at least safely assume there is not a particular demographic that just so happens to hate Razbam for whatever pre-conceptual reason, other that being genuinely dissatisfied by the product they have bought.
Complaints can certainly be warranted and it’s our job anyways as beta/EA users, but there is no excuse for toxicity. You can make your opinion known without making the whole place toxic. Sure they may have legitimate reasons but we should be capable of voicing our thoughts(however critical) respectfully
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:21 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkthunder View Post
Sorry but that’s a bit hypocritical IMO.
Have you questioned why there is harsh criticism and negative feedback in the first place?
Why does the community become “toxic” against a particular product / developer?
I think there is enough diversity in age, nationality and background of those being “toxic” to at least safely assume there is not a particular demographic that just so happens to hate Razbam for whatever pre-conceptual reason, other that being genuinely dissatisfied by the product they have bought.

I repeat it: the PRODUCT that they BOUGHT.
Razbam is a business, not a charity. We are customers, not donors, even though we are being treated as such.

I mean, I get it that this is all a niche and we have to be good to each other etc. but let’s be honest, if you went out and bought a washing machine that doesn’t work properly, you’d call up the shop and complain. And if said shop came back with “constructive criticism” excuses you’d start to be a little bit mad.
Why the common business-to-consumer logics should not apply to DCS quite frankly baffles me.
And yes, I know, it’s EA etc etc etc. but that’s getting pretty tired as I am sure you can tell (even though you can’t admit it within these premises).
Read it again

Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome.

Or in simple terms be a nice human being when giving feedback. Whatever your opinion is of a product being rude about it isnt welcome.

It did not say all negative feedback will be deleted.

If you want to discuss moderation PM me, this isnt the place.

Topic here is " Coming together with MiTech "

off topic posts will be removed.

thanks
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:52 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by tugais View Post
I just want to point out that in Razbam's case, not all their products are in early access. The Mirage, at least, left EA for over a year if I'm not mistaken. What we need to do as customers is to vote with our wallets, this is the only viable way to change the course of the current development policy within DCS World.

Complaining every day won't achieve anything. We need to continue to report the current bugs found in our planes on a regular basis or bump up a thread that has been forgotten for too long until these bugs are added to the bug tracker. If someone asks for the current state of a plane, reply in a courteous manner and point out to the various topics describing the problems affecting the module, then let this person makes his own choice.

Being over critical is not the way we'll get our modules being completed. Next time you are hyped by a new module announcement, just reflect on the past work of the developers. Did they get their previous modules out of early access ? How long did it take ? Is the developer communicative, straightforward and transparent with its customers ? These three simple questions should certainly help you to make the right choice and perhaps prevent you from joining the dissatisfied crowd.
I agree, vote with your wallet. I will say, however, that many of the complaints cited here are real and prevent one from making a good buying decision. With the M2K (which is the least complete of all the modules, so if that's considered out of EA that is really not good), I had NO IDEA of all the broken things on the aircraft. Indeed, you seem to think it isn't even in EA anymore. I had no idea the INS, CCRP, PI, TWS, etc were all not working. I downloaded the manual before buying, watched training missions on youtube, looked at the actual training mission scripts. Everything referenced completed features that were not actually complete and were known to be working improperly.

I'll never forget how annoyed I was when I first flew the INS training. Why the hell won't the cross go in the right place? Why can't I even seem to move it?

I bought it and the Harrier the same day. I should have come on here to see what was wrong first. If it wasn't for the people complaining, I wouldn't have any idea that these things weren't my fault, because RAZ does not have a reliable bug tracker and often marks unresolved bugs as resolved.

I don't have a problem with any other EA module, each one (the latest for me being the Hornet) I was able to keep track of and buy when I found it to be as feature complete as I thought necessary for me to enjoy. Haven't complained about the JF17, F14, AJS37, FA18 at all. The only one I have a problem with is the M2K, as it was made impossible for me to make a good buying decision.

You can't hide behind "it's EA" and at the same time hide or unintentionally obfuscate what's actually going on.

This kind of ambiguity is what breeds this atmosphere. I participate quite a bit in this community in all the forums. It just isn't like this in those other forums. I mean sometimes, but not nearly as much as it is here.

I am looking forward to the update and I hope we see much in the way of progress. If they patch up the M2K and Harrier as they indicated, I have no problem buying a MiG23 and a Bo105 from them, but communication needs to improve or features need to come faster or this sort of stuff is just going to continue on and on.

I'm rooting for these guys. If their modules were complete rubbish I would make one negative post saying so and move on. They're not complete rubbish, not by a long shot, which is why I try to come on here and as honestly and gently as I can offer feedback, and I see alot of other people doing that, too.

It's going to come down to this; if they largely finish the AV8B and M2K and leave no major bugs this year, the tone around here will shift. I know I wouldn't mention it anymore at least. If they don't, then expect this sort of thing to continue.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:06 AM   #56
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[...]
It's going to come down to this; if they largely finish the AV8B and M2K and leave no major bugs this year, the tone around here will shift. I know I wouldn't mention it anymore at least. If they don't, then expect this sort of thing to continue.
Since the desperation is already so big, regular serious progress would change that already.

And if you can't deliver, you explain it to people honestly. You would stay in contact.
But of course don't make the mistake of announcing further projects and cooperations at the same time or frankly declare that what people are waiting for or/and are dissatisfied with is only a by-product for you. Because that wouldn't help much calm things down right now.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:11 PM   #57
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:31 PM   #58
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Too much misunderstanding of development process here. This is good news.


The reason it is good news is because each of the existing developers in RB benefit from the individual knowledge of the other team members they can discuss things with. Larger teams always benefit from that. They also benefit from being able to pass around more workflows from one to the other, share and help balance out downtime and generally work faster.

Imagine a single thread, a single aircraft and two developers. One does the model and textures and the other does the avionics and FM (broad simplicity)


In the case of two people there are many steps where the coder waits on the model, to get the coordinates for the pushbutton or something to be finished. Until then, he does what? And after the model is done... what? Unemployed artist?

I could talk about an actual real scenario with a person from RB that I know personally but it's not as if anyone that argues here about parallel projects being a "betrayal of promise" actually has the brain capacity to understand why what they are doing is STILL correct even if I disagree with the speed of development of the Harrier.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Pikey View Post
Too much misunderstanding of development process here. This is good news.


The reason it is good news is because each of the existing developers in RB benefit from the individual knowledge of the other team members they can discuss things with. Larger teams always benefit from that. They also benefit from being able to pass around more workflows from one to the other, share and help balance out downtime and generally work faster.

Imagine a single thread, a single aircraft and two developers. One does the model and textures and the other does the avionics and FM (broad simplicity)


In the case of two people there are many steps where the coder waits on the model, to get the coordinates for the pushbutton or something to be finished. Until then, he does what? And after the model is done... what? Unemployed artist?

I could talk about an actual real scenario with a person from RB that I know personally but it's not as if anyone that argues here about parallel projects being a "betrayal of promise" actually has the brain capacity to understand why what they are doing is STILL correct even if I disagree with the speed of development of the Harrier.
It must be great to be among the enlightened ones, who are blessed with enough brain capacity and then on top have vip access.
In my community, you don't make big announcements (about new projects etc.), if you can't even fulfil your basic obligations. And it is completely irrelevant what is the reason behind your new decision or the meaningfulness. Anyone who has a little insight into their own shortcomings would come to the idea that part of the crowd will not go wild.
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Old 02-14-2020, 01:05 PM   #60
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CptSmiley is a FM coder
Zeus & Elwood are System coders.

So they have two system coders and one FM coder. Not more.

Three unfinished and buggy all over modules released, promised to touch nothing before those are finished and bug free, but also at the same time announced that the Mig-23 and the F-15 will hit DCS in 2020. They now also said that they will code the systems for the Bo-105 and also have the Super Tucano and Bronco in the pipeline.

If they don't have a Fluxcompensator I'm surprised to see how they'll stick to all their promises and with which quality they will deliver.
Small hint: If you bring those questions up the table, Decoy most likely gonna delete those posts and open questions remain unanswered. See the other Bo-105 thread here.
It's 'Flux capacitor'... and did you read BIGNEWYS post
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