The Battle of the Stretch Goal

Ilya,

I've already suggested a change of project goals a while ago. I'm happy you're considering this now. In my opinion, reading the KS guidelines, you can do this. You can't however change the promised rewards, effectively they could change as well however once the project goals have changed. This is so because of the way they are formulated.

My suggestion:

- use the kickstarter funds to create the base game

- create one or two trainer aircraft (a Tiger Moth and/or a Bücker Jungmann)

- release the game and trainer aircraft for free

- in the game, create a training infrastructure that allows newcomers to find experienced instructors to help them fly hi-fi trainer planes

- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only

- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s

- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing

The way I see it, if you come out with a very honest assessment now, that this is the way to make this project happen, and that it otherwise has become unfeasible to pursue the original goals, you will still have this community behind you and you will still meet the original funding goal. The aim now has to be to make this project sustainable long term and not to aim for stretch goals.

MAC

Yes, once someone make a pledge, it is now a legal contract. llya would not be able to change that, and I'm sure he would'nt even think of such a thing

Great, but my concern about people not understanding it still worries me though:cry:

 

 

I tend to agree.

 

As it stands I see several obstacles, most of which are pretty much insurmountable at this stage:

 

...

 

4. The frequent changes of focus (first you were going for a brand new audience, then you shifted to the hardcore), the increasingly complex/confusing pledge rewards, the indecisiveness over stretch goals, the rather amateurish videos and the general lack of communication with the community make the whole endeavour seem rather unprofessional and poorly thought out.

 

I don't mean any of this to sound nasty or personal (I really, really don't), but it's very pertinent to the issue at hand. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, there are concerns around your ability to deliver what you promise and the execution of the Kickstarter to date has arguably done more to reinforce those worries than address them.

 

I don't see these "trust issues" as something that can easily be addressed in the near future. Your best bet from my perspective is to focus on "right sizing" the project and then executing on it to a very high degree of quality. If you can do this in addition to having a coherent, workable long term financial strategy, you'll begin to win the doubters back and make money in the process.

 

...

 

This!

All the more reason to seek exposure in the wider gaming community and to do it right this time!

I will admit, when I want to get someone interested in the DCS series then I show them a Glowing AMRAAM video to stoke the fires. He does some of the best videos I have seen for flight sims.

Changing rewards has created a lot of confusion in the past although I have always felt that three free flyables was a bit much. I would definatly offer only one flyable, namely the P-47. The other two aircraft have huge fan bases to tap to bring in extra revenue on release or extra pledges for the KS.

It was said earlier and I will repeat, Paypal is a no brainer. Definatly do this.

Ilya I am glad that you are seeing that giving away 3 aircraft in your simulator is possibly a bad idea. I do think this is potentially why many have not backed. And I have to say it doesn't quite sit right with me that as someone who has backed the project substantially and financially I get no advantage over someone who did not back the project upon the games release, obviously if the project doesn't reach a stretch goal. Please don't take these comments the wrong way because I want them to be constructive. I want to see DCS WW2 develop desperately, I want to see some very important aircraft developed like the B17 mosquito and typhoon. And I want new maps and theatres developed. That's why I don't want to see your good work given away for nothing 1 aircraft free then the others must be purchased in my opinion.

Yes! A free trainer aircraft.

Or, if it would be possible, a fighter without guns and only 20% fuel. So you would be able to do takeoffs, landings, and explore the world.

Also, I have yet to see a single person complaining about the prospect of the aircraft not being free for non backers. And so many are suggesting to make it so.

Great, but my concern about people not understanding it still worries me though:cry:

From the rewards descriptions:

Pledge $20 or more: Everything at the previous level, plus a digital copy of one additional flyable aircraft of your choice."]Everything at the previous level, plus a digital copy of one additional flyable aircraft of your choice.

Pledge $30 or more: Everything at the $10 level, plus a digital copy of two additional flyable aircraft of your choice.

It says nowhere that you are entitled to three flyable aircraft for free. You can't change the rewards as soon as there are takers, but you can change the project goals (see Kickstarter guidelines). Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, the quoted rewards would be satisfied by delivering the Mustang and/or the Dora.

MAC

Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, ...

"The free downloadable version of Europe 1944 will include THREE fully flyable aircraft, each arguably more famous than the next: the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt fighter/ground attack aircraft, the Supermarine Spitfire fighter, and the German Messerschmitt Bf.109K. Non-player-controllable versions of all other aircraft will also be included, allowing the players to see them in action at any time."

This was quoted from the Kickstarter page. I think this is the statement that is potentially confusing among everyone

Paypal is a no brainer IMO, lots of younger games can often only pay via paypal.

 

You should be posting the kickstarter updates on the major game forums. Here, SimHQ etc etc. Having them only on kickstarter is fairly useless, it does not reach new people. Each update should get its own thread.

At the very least here and SHQ..

I'm a huge DCS and WWII sim fan. I own every DCS module, but I haven't pledged yet.

 

Why? Because of the "free" thing. Money is tight, and I can't afford to pay for others to have free content. I'll feel bad and a traitor for it, but it's the most logical thing to do given the choice to have it for free.

But I will gladly pay for any additional content you can offer after the initial release.

 

So my suggestion would be to make the free content limited, but as good as possible. So quality not quantity. That will be the best marketing campaign you can imagine.

 

Then after the initial release, use the content you have, and use the skilled video makers that this forum can offer and make a killer trailer for "what could be". And I mean let these guys do their magic. With radio comms, voice overs and what not. Make it a small blockbuster.

 

I mean, you sold one million copies of Il-2, you gotta know there are more than 1600 simmers out there. If you make 3 DCS level WWII planes, and tie it up into a playable WWII map, you are set!

 

After that, you say jump! We ask how high?

I don't own every DCS module and do not plan to .. but I will do what I can and have for this WWII venture.. I am not asking how high.. I am saying I have given supprt.. now show me.. something..

From the rewards descriptions:

 

It says nowhere that you are entitled to three flyable aircraft for free. You can't change the rewards as soon as there are takers, but you can change the project goals (see Kickstarter guidelines). Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, the quoted rewards would be satisfied by delivering the Mustang and/or the Dora.

MAC

Yeah that makes no Sense to me either.. but then we still do not know what will come in the initial release. I would imagine that at least two flyables would come in the initial release..

A copy/paste:

Bucic 35 minutes ago

 

@Ilya

The 'drastic measure':

"Free version of DCS WWII contains ONE free aircraft (to be voted for by backers)."

By all means - yes!

I say go ahead with the 'drastic measure' i.e. cut the set of free flyables. Even one german plus one allied fighter of DCS-level, i.e. military-grade, fidelity is already too generous, IMO. A good alternative though, as a 'less drastic' scenario.

 

#5

1. No more 'my vision is...' videos.

I know it sounds harsh but there were not enough actual content coverage so far to make room for this kind of videos. Especially that you're only partially correct with your points, e.g. there's nothing you can do to change the fact that it's a world of change if one has rudder pedals, let alone a higher-grader control stick + throttle. So please leave this subject to after the KS closes.

2. Clearing up *the tough issues*: your 'previous project', how will 'the DCS World is actually the weak link of DCS WWII technologically' be dealt with (graphics, AI, damage model) and so on.

3. Have 1 person scanning the comments and ED forums for unanswered questions so he can prioritize them for you and go back with answers ASAP.

 

#1

Please go ahead but also please review the following before commencing any works on the video:

On presentation of DCS

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php…

DCS cameras, views and video recording

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php…

 

#2

Please don't. Too confusing, as you said, and too late.

 

#3

YES! I wasn't happy myself I couldn't use my PayPal account to pledge.

Bucic 2 minutes ago

 

On the 'drastic measure':

Please don't consider 'special versions' for backers as an alternative for taking away the free flyables. I think you need to create an incentive for the non-backers rather than further squeeze the backers. Bringing back hardcopy manuals is the only change in rewards I see that would make sense.

 

"It looks like that 9 out of 10 people checking out the project never bother to check the updates. So whatever we do, it probably has to go right up there to the main spot and not into one of the updates."

Good observation as well as an argument against trying to turn the world around and rip your heart out trying to bring 'casuals' to hardcore simming. What hardcore simming does and always will require is a freaking slightest effort and a set of proper controls.

 

One single best idea in this regard I've seen was a dual seat whatever aircraft for community assisted training, if you insist on pursuing the idea of 'easy in'.

 

One more thing - there's absolutely no reason to give up on the $150k goal for Me 262 yet! Especially if you take away the most free flyables from the bystanders. And the perspective of post-kickstarter funding doesn't change that.

 

"I certainly couldn't in good faith ask a friend to back a campaign who was getting less for their money than I am for the same."

Well, those first to back a project usually gets rewarded so...

 

The ATAG guys:

I'm with Soeren Dalsgaard on this one. They are important backers right from the start and the questions raised on their forums should be answered first.

 

My suggestion:

 

- use the kickstarter funds to create the base game

- create one or two trainer aircraft (a Tiger Moth and/or a Bücker Jungmann)

- release the game and trainer aircraft for free

- in the game, create a training infrastructure that allows newcomers to find experienced instructors to help them fly hi-fi trainer planes

- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only

- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s

- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing

 

The way I see it, if you come out with a very honest assessment now, that this is the way to make this project happen, and that it otherwise has become unfeasible to pursue the original goals, you will still have this community behind you and you will still meet the original funding goal. The aim now has to be to make this project sustainable long term and not to aim for stretch goals.

 

MAC

So in short:

do one - do well -> demonstrate it -> get set for the next one

AND

honest assesments

I like it!

And something else that I think you should add that will draw casual players into the game after it's released (but will not give anything for the Kickstarter) is a Warbirds style online war. Both sides try to capture air bases from the other side by taking out the AAA, control tower etc and then drop paratroopers to capture it.

Cheesy? Yes of course! The full real hard core guys will hate it. But for the ones you talk about that don't know what induced drag is (and don't care about boring training missions) - I am pretty sure it will work very well!

EDIT - thinking of it. In Normany it could be used in a way that at least is a bit more "realistic". A number of "choke points" (flags) are marked on the map. After the landing of troops on the invasion beach the "flags" closest to the beach start flashing. Then it's up to the bombers/CAS aircraft to take out a number of clearly known things in that area. If it's a bridge flashing it's a no brainer what to destroy, if it's a rail junction you maybe have to take out some trains and some AAA defences etc. After the targets are down the area is captured by your side and the "front line moves". Wasn't CFS3 having some attempt at that that did not work that good? For online it could be a lot of fun if well implemented, and I guess it could work good for off-line to? The fighters naturally have to protect their own bombers/CAS, and take out the ones from the other side. A bit like the regular online missions in IL2, but with a dynamic map where things happen. Naturally a lot of work to do it really slick - but if not "overdone" I guess it could be done?

I think the biggest problem is that they offered 3 aircraft for free. By looking at this again it appears that the backers who pledged $40 would get "3 additional aircraft". Additional meaning extra aircraft on top of the 3 they initially said would be free.

I think they were expecting to get a lot more backing and would reach many stretch goals and end up producing 7 or 8 aircraft. Then those who pledged say, $40 would get the 3 free, plus, 3 additional aircraft produced.

This is how I see and understand it, and it appears there is a tremendous amount of confusion about how the entire backing tier structure works and what is actually getting delivered.

I firmly believe that they shot themselves in the foot by offering 3 aircraft for free. This has made many potential backers choose to not invest. Many probably thought "why would I pay to get aircraft that others will get for free on release?" If anything they should have offered a trainer for free so that players who were on the fence about pledging can get to try the immersive training and really get to enjoy the product. They may later go on to purchase additional models (at full price) if they really enjoyed the product.

At this point I'm not sure what can be done. There has been a lot of negative press about KS lateley and them doing something dramatic can really hurt their reputation. I think what is done is done. I hope that everything goes well for them because this has a potential to be a groundbreaking project.

Like always, this is just my personal $.02 on the issue.

EDIT:

To clear confusion I am not advocating that only one trainer should be available upon release. Only that non-pledgers should have that aircraft for free. The pledgers will get the aircraft that they paid for

Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects, no planes on initial release but trainers and the (by then) already established Mustang and Dora.

Any more ways to kill this game? Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of non-pledgers being able to fly around the free map in a trainer, but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects, no planes on initial release but trainers and the (by then) already established Mustang and Dora.

Any more ways to kill this game? Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of non-pledgers being able to fly around the free map in a trainer, but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

I was not advocating that pledgers shoudn't have aircraft on release. I was stating that there is the fact that the 3 aircraft are going to be release for free upon completion.

I said that the only free aircraft for non-pledgers should be a trainer aircraft. The pledgers should get the additional aircraft that they paid for.

I was stating that the way it is now it appears that someone who pledged nothing will get almost the same benefit as someone who pledged $40

I think the ME-262 stretch goal should be changed to a Tempest or a Typhoon.... So you have 2 American planes, 2 German planes, and 2 British planes.... But that's another topic all together.

As far as changing what you have now...You don't want to limit the initial release to only 1 free plane.... The last thing you want is a million P-47's scouring the online map for one poor bastard that paid for the FW-190.

At the very least.... The initial release should be a pair. "P-47 vs ME-109." It'll keep the online matches fair as all these new players will supplement the already released P-51 and soon to be released FW-190.

Consider the Spit and any other stretch-goal aircraft as a bonus for supporting.

but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

Where did you get that from?

The idea is to make everything payware, except for the trainer.

You get planes either by backing, or by buying after the release.

Don't have any really good idea's other then;

Accept Paypal!!!

Even if it only gives you an additional 10% in pledges that alone is already;

12.000$

Which i think is on the very conservative side given the fact that a LOT of people don't have a credit card.

And anno 2013, in the aftermath of the economic crises, it sure has not got easier to get one either.

So really, accept paypal and you WILL see an significant influx in pledges.

Make sure to announce it everywhere though, and make sure its impossible to miss.

Cause people won't pay for something they don't know they can pay for.

I agree with what others are saying here and the comments section. The three free aircraft seems too high. With only 5 to fly at the moment any new players enticed by the free aircraft are unlikely to stick around for too long.

I still feel the Kickstarter required addons to allow people to customise their pledges to how they wanted them. Examples of which are in the text document I sent via Kickstarter. Edited version here https://www.dropbox.com/s/kprpuvvppisk1p3/Kickstarter%20Help.odt

Most importantly Keep funding open after Kickstarter to help reach the stretch goals. Kickstarters (over the current $40) will get any of the goals hit through additional funding. The additional funding should have higher pricing (still lower than final) to reward those who have backed early on in this Kickstarter. As you hit the steach goals the reward prices should raise to reflect the additional value.

Doing this would mean current backers get best value and it's profitable for them to get as many people as they can to add to the funds.

Also keeps the people informed with video updates, live streams, WIP screen shots, polls.

Where did you get that from?

- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only

- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s

- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing

Don't have any really good idea's other then;

 

Accept Paypal!!!

 

Even if it only gives you an additional 10% in pledges that alone is already;

12.000$

 

 

 

Which i think is on the very conservative side given the fact that a LOT of people don't have a credit card.

And anno 2013, in the aftermath of the economic crises, it sure has not got easier to get one either.

 

So really, accept paypal and you WILL see an significant influx in pledges.

 

Make sure to announce it everywhere though, and make sure its impossible to miss.

 

Cause people won't pay for something they don't know they can pay for.

Just a reminder - any card should work, even a standard payment card.

I love WW2 era fighters and I'm hovering my mouse over the blank area where the paypal option is missing..

Unfortunately for me anything regarding money online is either payed with paypal or not payed at all... that simple

Post #27, by MAC.

Oh I see. But that would be a breach of kickstarter rules?

Just a reminder - any card should work, even a standard payment card.

A standard payment card would only work if it is an credit card as well.

Which at least in NL is definitely NOT standard.

1. paypal

2. only 1 free combat aircraft for non pledgers

3. a cute little trainer for free.....not a Tiger Moth, T-6 or a Bucker is good

4. do it now.....clocks ticking

job done!