ACM question - one circle flow - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-05-2019, 05:05 PM   #11
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I think we've migrated off the point my original question. Of course different fighters may be able to do different things while sustaining corner speed.

But shouldn't radius be minimised in this case? And doesn't that happen at a speed significantly below corner speed anyway, and at lower G? Why pull tons of G and go nose low to keep your speed, instead of going high to slow down and reduce radius? Even if he goes around his turn faster than you, isn't the whole point of 1-circle geometry that you have the advantage even as a slower fighter as long as you've turned tigher?
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:04 AM   #12
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My guess from that bit of text is this - whenever the "angles fight" is discussed, the book always emphasizes how important it is to maintain minimum vertical maneuvering speed to threaten the boogie should he choose to go vertical. It's harder to do that if you go nose high and further bleed speed in an attempt to reduce your turn radius. If you do go vertical while turning hard, while the boogie follows you without pulling as hard, then you play into the energy fighter's hands if that makes sense. At least, that's my interpretation of it

You are indeed correct that radius is generally minimized below corner speed (e.g. page 392) and that 1 circle fights benefit minimum turn radius over maximum turn rate (e.g pages 79 and 80) though.

Last edited by TLTeo; 10-08-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:05 PM   #13
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If you look carefully at the physics involved, you can see that below corner speed your turn radius is almost constant while doing a lift limit turn. So as long as you stay slower than corner speed and faster than minimum radius speed your radius is going to be pretty close to the minimum.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:07 PM   #14
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While the radius may be fairly constant the lack of forward progress at a slower speed helps you get your weapons on earlier. In practice you slow down a lot more than just below corner speed in a single circle fight.

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Old 10-08-2019, 09:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLTeo View Post
My guess from that bit of text is this - whenever the "angles fight" is discussed, the book always emphasizes how important it is to maintain minimum vertical maneuvering speed to threaten the boogie should he choose to go vertical. It's harder to do that if you go nose high and further bleed speed in an attempt to reduce your turn radius. If you do go vertical while turning hard, while the boogie follows you without pulling as hard, then you play into the energy fighter's hands if that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Bushmanni View Post
If you look carefully at the physics involved, you can see that below corner speed your turn radius is almost constant while doing a lift limit turn. So as long as you stay slower than corner speed and faster than minimum radius speed your radius is going to be pretty close to the minimum.
Yes, thank you, that's what I was looking for. Those pieces of information together do make it make sense. There's still the fact to consider that you would be above him and inside his turn, but I can see that with a significant loss of turn rate (slower speed) without a further radius gain, you would struggle to gain a further advantage from that position.

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Originally Posted by WindyTX View Post
While the radius may be fairly constant the lack of forward progress at a slower speed helps you get your weapons on earlier. In practice you slow down a lot more than just below corner speed in a single circle fight.

With all aspect missiles yes, but the part of the book I was referring to is about guns only. In guns only, it makes a lot less sense to burn all your energy for a shot you might not even get, then have the guy energy fight you at his leisure because you can't properly threaten him if he sees what you're doing and just extends.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:17 PM   #16
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Well if we're going that way, if you assume the angles fighter carries all-aspect missiles then going 1 circle doesn't even make sense because by the time your nose comes around you might be within min-range and not be able to fire.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VC View Post
Yes, thank you, that's what I was looking for. Those pieces of information together do make it make sense. There's still the fact to consider that you would be above him and inside his turn, but I can see that with a significant loss of turn rate (slower speed) without a further radius gain, you would struggle to gain a further advantage from that position.
The easiest way to see this in action are the turn radius lines of an EM diagram. Start at a Ps: 0 point near one of the radius lines. You go a little bit faster (to the right), pull a little bit more G, radius stays the same while resulting rate goes up. Select a higher descent rate in ft/sec to increase your actual Ps, you pull a bit more and your radius goes down while similarly increasing your rate of turn. So you can, in fact, descend with a higher G turn and maintain the same (or better) radius than the bandit with a higher turn rate. The trick is in moderating how much you lose in altitude versus how much you gain in G.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmanni View Post
If you look carefully at the physics involved, you can see that below corner speed your turn radius is almost constant while doing a lift limit turn. So as long as you stay slower than corner speed and faster than minimum radius speed your radius is going to be pretty close to the minimum.


Hmm don‘t think you can make such a general statement.Highly depends on which aircraft we are talking about.
If you look at the various EM diagramms floating around, there are quite a few aircraft ( only talking jets now) where the speed for minimum radius is quite a bit below corner speed and more importantly, the difference in turn radii is significant, eg. radius being halved or more at the lower speed.The lower speed and decreased turn radius seems to me what counts in a 1circle fight.


So far I m also problems understanding the advice of the mentioned book.


Kind regards,


Snappy.

Last edited by Snappy; 10-09-2019 at 03:30 AM.
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