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I guess nobody cares about the G-tolerance in the Viper now?


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ED has mentioned before that they will fix the low G-tolerance in the Viper to allow us to sustain 9G turns as real Viper pilots do (I heard they can sustain 9Gs for at least 15 seconds).

 

IDK if this is a feature/fix that is very difficult to add in the game. No news or development update on this so far...

 

IMO if you can turn off the G effect in the game right now, why not just disable the laughable G effect in the Viper? It is kind of difficult to dogfight in the Viper now since you cannot max perform the aircraft/pilot. Also, Viper sucks at one circle fight compares to the Hornet so flying slow is not really an option.

 

I hope ED can fix this issue soon. Thanks!

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I guess nobody cares about the ridiculous G-tolerance in the Viper now?

 

ED has mentioned before that they will fix the low G-tolerance in the Viper to allow us to sustain 9G turns as real Viper pilots do (I heard they can sustain 9Gs for at least 15 seconds).

 

IDK if this is a feature/fix that is very difficult to add in the game. No news or development update on this so far...

 

IMO if you can turn off the G effect in the game right now, why not just disable the laughable G effect in the Viper? It is kind of difficult to dogfight in the Viper now since you cannot max perform the aircraft/pilot. Also, Viper sucks at one circle fight compares to the Hornet so flying slow is not really an option.

 

I hope ED can fix this issue soon. Thanks!

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I guess we'll just have to wait, they said multiple times in the product description and in their videos that the inclined seat makes for better G tolerance, but even though they brag a lot about it, it still isn't modeled in the game after I don't know how many months.

I heard from some source that somewhere at the start of 2020 they said they were working on it but still nothing...

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I care..maybe. Or let me say this in an other way. I notice it now and will have a look at it when the Module is out of EA and any testing Programm. Maybe 2021 or later...

If it is still there when the F-16 is "finished", then I will care. Until then it is just 1 thing of a big number of things that doe not work propper. Who cares? Why are you guys always opening new threads about it every day?

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merged posts, please do not make duplicate ones.

 

G is being looked at by the team, but this is not something that can be done quickly.

 

thanks

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ED has mentioned before that they will fix the low G-tolerance in the Viper to allow us to sustain 9G turns as real Viper pilots do (I heard they can sustain 9Gs for at least 15 seconds).

This is a human thing, which means that every pilot will be different, and any pilot's G tolerance won't even be the same day to day. It does seem that DCS is a bit punishing when it comes to GLOC, but that is very difficult to say with any certainty. Don't expect that your digital pilot should be able to always hit some specific metric of performance to be "realistic."

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This is a human thing, which means that every pilot will be different, and any pilot's G tolerance won't even be the same day to day. It does seem that DCS is a bit punishing when it comes to GLOC, but that is very difficult to say with any certainty. Don't expect that your digital pilot should be able to always hit some specific metric of performance to be "realistic."

 

Yes, yes.

But in DCS we have a model pilot who behaves statistically the same.

Beneficial effects are however:

- G-Warmup (modelled)

- Seat inclination (F-16, not modelled)

- Overpressure mask (F-16, not modelled)

- G-Suit (no idea if the model pilot behaves differently in airplanes with G-suit than in airplanes without one)

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This is a human thing, which means that every pilot will be different, and any pilot's G tolerance won't even be the same day to day. It does seem that DCS is a bit punishing when it comes to GLOC, but that is very difficult to say with any certainty. Don't expect that your digital pilot should be able to always hit some specific metric of performance to be "realistic."

 

Not particularly. If you can't hold a sustained 9G pull - you don't fly Vipers, easy.

The Viper is a 9G-capable aircraft...every day, not now and then when the pilot is having a good day. The Air Force isn't all like - 'most the time our pilots can handle the 9G that the aircraft is capable of, when they are having a bad day they just G-LOC and die...but hey that's life'....

 

I absolutely expect my 'DCS digital pilot' to be able to meet this 9G metric each and every flight, with appropriate 'G-warmup' etc.

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Not particularly. If you can't hold a sustained 9G pull - you don't fly Vipers, easy.

The Viper is a 9G-capable aircraft...every day, not now and then when the pilot is having a good day. The Air Force isn't all like - 'most the time our pilots can handle the 9G that the aircraft is capable of, when they are having a bad day they just G-LOC and die...but hey that's life'....

 

I absolutely expect my 'DCS digital pilot' to be able to meet this 9G metric each and every flight, with appropriate 'G-warmup' etc.

 

Exactly! At the moment, our digital pilot blacks out when pulling 7-8 Gs for just a few seconds...

 

In real life, that pilot will never pass the pilot training program for modern jets like F-16 or F-18. In other words, the current G effect in DCS is unrealistic and exaggerated.

 

Also, I am very curious about what ED is saying. Why is it so difficult and time-consuming to tweak the G effect in the game? I don't do game developing but I think they could just tweak the codes a bit. Instead of blacking out when pulling 8 Gs for 3 seconds, change the parameters so the pilot blacks out when pulling 9 Gs for 10 seconds. Does ED have 1000 lines of codes for G effect? :lol:

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Not particularly. If you can't hold a sustained 9G pull - you don't fly Vipers, easy.

The Viper is a 9G-capable aircraft...every day, not now and then when the pilot is having a good day. The Air Force isn't all like - 'most the time our pilots can handle the 9G that the aircraft is capable of, when they are having a bad day they just G-LOC and die...but hey that's life'....

 

I absolutely expect my 'DCS digital pilot' to be able to meet this 9G metric each and every flight, with appropriate 'G-warmup' etc.

Uh, sure, that's why USAF pilots in real life never GLOC and crash, right? :lol:

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Uh, sure, that's why USAF pilots in real life never GLOC and crash, right? :lol:

 

There, there - it's ok lil' buddy, there is no need to cry because someone made a logical and measured argument that contradicts what you believe.

 

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There, there - it's ok lil' buddy, there is no need to cry because someone made a logical and measured argument that contradicts what you believe.

 

Everything is going to be alright...

Wow, condescending much?

 

So by your logic, Maj. Stephen Del Bagno should have never been a Viper pilot? Capt. Eric Ziegler should have failed basic flight training?

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- G-Suit (no idea if the model pilot behaves differently in airplanes with G-suit than in airplanes without one)

 

FWIW, every high performance Western jet fighter - and even low-performance planes like the A-10 and probably the C-101 - in DCS has pilots wearing G-suits (with the exception of maybe the Saber). They're not exactly a new technology and early models date to World War II.

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You mean someone made an obvious counter-argument to your....'measured' deduction that absolutely all situations are the same, which they aren't.

 

Here is another one. If G-LOC is not a thing in the US Air Force F-16 fleet because the pilots are perfect, why did they spend millions of dollars on GCAS, then Auto-GCAS?

 

It wasn't the sole reason, but it sure is one of them.

 

Also, if I G warmup my pilot sustains 9G for about maybe 20 seconds. It is my opinion that this needs a small buff in the viper but not a huge one. ALso, the faster you're going the more the G-force affects the pilot. Mover was talking about it in one of is videos where he was struggling to stay conscious. ED are probably looking into things like this as well.

 

There, there - it's ok lil' buddy, there is no need to cry because someone made a logical and measured argument that contradicts what you believe.

 

Everything is going to be alright...

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You mean someone made an obvious counter-argument to your....'measured' deduction that absolutely all situations are the same, which they aren't

But that's how DCS does ist. In generell a Viper pilot should have a higher base g tolerance as an other planes pilot, because of the inclined seat. And that's just not modeled in DCS. You have the same base g tolerance in the F-16 and the F/A-18. That what you are talking about should be applied then to all modules. Currently the Viper pilot does always have "a bad day" while the hornet pilot is always in a good condition.

 

I can't see why you think this point is valid and obvious in this discussion. So you would be satisfied if g tolerance for Hornet and other 15° seat planes would be tuned down instead of the 30° seat would be turned up? Or what is your point? Make an sports test before flying in DCS so the programm can model your dayly g tolerance?


Edited by The_Dan
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ED has mentioned before that they will fix the low G-tolerance in the Viper to allow us to sustain 9G turns as real Viper pilots do (I heard they can sustain 9Gs for at least 15 seconds).

 

IDK if this is a feature/fix that is very difficult to add in the game. No news or development update on this so far...

 

IMO if you can turn off the G effect in the game right now, why not just disable the laughable G effect in the Viper? It is kind of difficult to dogfight in the Viper now since you cannot max perform the aircraft/pilot. Also, Viper sucks at one circle fight compares to the Hornet so flying slow is not really an option.

 

I hope ED can fix this issue soon. Thanks!

 

Even when the G is fixed you don't want to get in a slow turn fight with a Hornet.

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My point is that G tolerance is a highly variable thing in real life, making it very difficult to abstract in a game like DCS. Unless we want to get into the minutia of modeling what our digital pilots had for lunch and how much sleep they got the night before, or even their overall health - which would be ridiculous - the developers need to settle on a reasonable generalized approximation of what a human can do. But the complexity of the real world condition means that making blanket statements about what our digital pilots "need" to be capable of to be "realistic" is very difficult because reality offers such a broad and variable range of possibilities.

 

That's why statements like "every Viper pilot must be capable of pulling 9Gs for 15 seconds" is worthless. It's also demonstrably wrong: Maj. Stephen Del Bagno GLOCed, crashed, and died after pulling 8.5Gs for 5 seconds - and he was a Thunderbird pilot.

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My point is that G tolerance is a highly variable thing in real life

Your point is completely wrong. IRL you must be able to pull 9g's for 15'' and 10'' on the same profile, or...you will not become a Viper Driver! Simple as that!

The prove you're wrong is the example you gave us. One exception! If not, everyday we have crashes due to GLoc's. Of course there are situations were your G tolerance is below where it should be, but in my case, doing demos between 7 and -3G's for 5 years, there were a couple of times that I have to pull back on G's, that's all.

As it is, GLoc after 4-5 sec at 8 to 9 G's is simply unreal. Note, that I don't say it is not possible, in certain conditions, but those are the exceptions.

 

In case you want to see the profiles...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4332336&postcount=6


Edited by MROK73
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Also, if I G warmup my pilot sustains 9G for about maybe 20 seconds. It is my opinion that this needs a small buff in the viper but not a huge one. ALso, the faster you're going the more the G-force affects the pilot. Mover was talking about it in one of is videos where he was struggling to stay conscious. ED are probably looking into things like this as well.

 

Lol, 20 seconds, I'll take a glass of what you're having :drunk:

 

Joking aside, I black out in a few seconds with g-warmup, and not just in the Viper but in any aircraft in DCS. It's a sim-wide problem. Maybe you have your settings to not fully "realistic".

 

 

Also, speed has no effect on g-tolerance. If you're pulling 7g at 700kts or 7g at 350kts, there is no difference. It's 7g. period. You probably misunderstood the meaning of "the faster you're going the more the G-force affects the pilot": of course, the fatser you're going, the more g you have available and th elonger you can pull those g if you choose to.

 

One more thing, g warm-up doesn't really increase your g-tolerance. The reason why pilots do a g-warmup is mainly to check the g-suit is working, and get a feeling of your response to g for the day (not every day is the same), which is a good idea before you slam it at 9g.

However, the so called g warm-up does nothing to increase your g-tolerance, and the way it's portrayed in DCS is, IMO, wrong.

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The prove you're wrong is the example you gave us. One exception!

Just because I referenced only a single incident of an F-16 pilot passing out and crashing does not mean it was the only one. There are plenty. The USAF averages about 7 GLOC incidents per year, about half of them in F-16s. Most aren't fatal, but some are.

 

It's a big enough problem that NASA developed a system to prevent an unconscious pilot from crashing, called AutoGCAS. It was deployed to the F-16 fleet first, in 2014, and it saved 4 pilot's lives within the first 2 years. You can watch a pilot pass out and be saved by the system here:

You can watch his HUD, he peaks at 8.4G, and only for a brief moment, before he passes out.

 

If every Viper pilot were capable of pulling 9Gs all day every day without fail, then we wouldn't be seeing the number of GLOC incidents we do in USAF F-16 squadrons. That fact that real Viper pilots are passing out pulling 8Gs on a yearly basis clearly indicates that the 9Gs for 15 seconds bar "or...you will not become a Viper Driver!" cannot be correct.


Edited by Bunny Clark
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Maj. Stephen Del Bagno GLOCed

 

wasn't he flying inverted (-2G) for a sustained period of time immediately before pulling the 8.5 G maneuver that ended his life? Whilst GLOC is GLOC, in that case there are mitigating circumstance (that supply context) and could possibly not be the best example to be used to support your argument ? just sayin...

Action After Contemplation

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That fact that real Viper pilots are passing out pulling 8Gs on a yearly basis clearly indicates that the 9Gs for 15 seconds bar "or...you will not become a Viper Driver!" cannot be correct.

 

If you do not pass the profile you never get seated in the aircraft, for qualifying, to begin with, as well as the ejection seat trainer.

7 GLoc's incidents a year?!?! In how many flight hours?? Does this mean that in a flight simulation EVERY time I pull g's beyond 7, I passed out!?!? That's ridiculous.

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7 GLoc's incidents a year?!?! In how many flight hours?? Does this mean that in a flight simulation EVERY time I pull g's beyond 7, I passed out!?!? That's ridiculous.

You completely miss my point. I said in my first post in this thread that I think G tolerance in the F-16 should be increased slightly.

 

I'm saying that calling GLOC in DCS "unrealistic" if we can't pull 9Gs for 15 seconds 100% of the time is wrong. If you want to play that way, you may as well just disable GLOC in settings.

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In real life, that pilot will never pass the pilot training program for modern jets like F-16 or F-18. In other words, the current G effect in DCS is unrealistic and exaggerated.

 

 

 

What she is talking, is what every pilot is talking about.

 

You do not go to cockpit and pull 9G because you are an experienced pilot if you haven't exercised for those forces. And even if you did them yesterday, you still go first thing first in the flight to "warmup" by pulling the G's and getting the body ready for it in the flight.

 

The DCS doesn't really model that.

 

Why I have made wish to the wishlist that we would get a virtual pilots for each ED account, a limited number like 5 virtual pilots. And each pilot has own career, and most importantly own life. It would be like rogue game, permanent death if the pilot dies.

 

You would need to build those your virtual pilots through their career in various means and times, and reasons are for this that you start with a modest G capacity, like around 5-7G's and then in the good position of your career you have a 9G capacity. But you need to maintain those levels in the specific times.

 

And if your pilot dies, it is gone, especially in the multiplayer as the ED server would maintain your virtual pilots and sync them with the server.

 

The reason for this is that you are suppose to have a life, like in a real life. You don't go flying stupid things because you die. But in DCS there is no such thing. And players expect to be able pull 9G indefinitely while looking their six a clock with TrackIR and operating their radios and weapons systems around cockpit etc. While in reality you are extremely restricted how you can move your head, how you can move your hands, how you overall even be able to see around and what.

 

And those would be required to be simulated in DCS. Especially for the multiplayer.

 

You can check out the idea, it is about having a Hardcore mode for DCS that servers can opt to be in. So nothing in current mode would be changed, anyone is free to play unrealistic manners they want, but in HC server or HC mode, there are penalties if you die. And that would put severe limitation, if not even stop to air-quake and other foolish things, because if it takes longer time to advance in virtual pilot career and maintain it, regardless that you have five of them, it means that you will value far more your virtual life than now.

 

Getting shot and killed is stupid, getting shot and ejecting is a lot smarter. Ejecting in enemy territory is stupid, but getting closer to own troops and getting a friendly SAR helicopter pilot pick up your ejected virtual pilot and bring them home safely, is smarter. Same thing is with landings and take-offs, no more stupid taxi-way take-offs etc as you get penalties. Landing without proper landing procedures and pattern without tower permissions would change your career.

 

So the dynamic campaign and multiplayer servers would dramatically benefit from a HC mode, as well pilots would enjoy more about flying against various players and aircrafts, as everyone starts to be more in the same line and not pulling 12 G without nothing or pulling 4.5G and blacking out. And when everyone should be wanted to get back to base safely, you would see players avoiding stupid situations just in sake "It would be fun if I could take alone those two enemy fighters!".

 

The G-force count is one magical thing among virtual pilots, like more you pull then "better you are" -egoistic status.

 

And AFAIK, DCS does have some kind G limit mode, where if you start pulling G's and you do some lower pulls then you can do higher G's later in the flight. So one can't just jump to cockpit in air and pull 9G's without limitations.

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....That fact that real Viper pilots are passing out pulling 8Gs on a yearly basis clearly indicates that the 9Gs for 15 seconds bar "or...you will not become a Viper Driver!" cannot be correct.

 

Mate, why do you keep banging on with this statement - everybody (except you it seems) knows full well that the centrifuge profile culminating in a 9G pull for 15 seconds is part if Viper training, and like any part of the training course on this aircraft or any in the military, you don't pass it - you fail and go fly something else, if you are lucky.

 

No one is arguing that yes there may be isolated incidents where pilots have G-LOC'd out, but these are just that - isolated in comparison to the hundreds of flight hours a year flown by military Viper drivers. They can be the result of mainly things such as a medical condition, ill health etc. etc - and I can guarantee that pilot will be grounded for medical review to determine exactly why, and if he is safe to continue flying that aircraft type.

 

At which point I will add you are absolutely right my reply was condescending to your your thoughtless comment - using the death of a pilot to 'support' your weak argument (noting what ilikepie said regarding the incident - a full neg to high-G pos pull or vice versa is highly dangerous, and they are prohibited in our AF at least) ) along with posting 'rolling on the floor laughing' emojis about it, is not cool man...

Uh, sure, that's why USAF pilots in real life never GLOC and crash, right? :lol:

 

No one here is asking to fly around indefinitely at 9G looking all over the place, just a reasonable G-LOC simulation, which ED have said they are looking at. There is also specific head positions to place your head in against the headrest before pulling the G to keep eyes-on etc, just FYI. In reality if you are dogfighting in DCS at a sustained 9G for long periods - you are flying too fast anyway...

 

Check this report stating how the vast majority of pilots are very capable of sustaining much higher G loading's than we currently can. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a196171.pdf

 

Was checking it again in DCS last night and yes fairly regular GLOC at 7-7.5G, which is low whatever a/c you are flying. I can also speak from personal experience that holding a sustained 6.5G pull for approx 20 seconds was fairly easy with no training at all (in the back seat) - and regular fighter pilots can handle 7+Gs with relative ease while looking around and speaking normally.

 

So perhaps just let people have their say without arguing with everyone, and we will see how ED goes, and hope they also see how limiting this currently is and increases the priority of it.

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