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Huey Engine Failure?


pimp

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here is me doing some take-off, landing and shooting practise.

in a reasonably heavy huey. (mini guns and m60 door gunners, half a tank of gas. 15-20c air temp. with a good head wind.)

using an interesting controls indicator :)

10 minutes of landing and 10 minutes of shooting In the same helicopter.

 

if you learn the belsimtek limits then the model flies fine. you just have to take full advantage of ground effect.

and even better. when belsimtek gives us more power. you will have the skill to take proper advantage of it.

 

the mission is by reflected, called huey playground.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=178909

great for muscle memory flights.

because you can practise what you feel like practising.

i.e. scales when learning guitar..

 

 

 

edit: I need to use external view... it also has 7 rockets a side so its a full gunship config. not just m60 and minis on the front.

so heavier than I thought.. should have opened the door and leaned out to check


Edited by Quadg

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

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You know what would be really helpful is if someone could make a mod similar to Quad's controls mod, but instead of the controls it shows the EGT temp gauge. Not sure why Bell decided that some of the more important gauge needed to be the smallest gauges, but there we go. Either a separate gauge mod or maybe even something as simple as a better, brighter marker for the yellow portion?

 

The gauge unless zoomed in on it is hard to read, maybe that's some of the cause for the repeated postings? I find myself having to "zoom in slow" at times, which does nothing for my hovering. With the "yellow" temp market being as small as it is it's tough to tell exactly when you're in it. Seems very easy to be either in the green or in the red.

 

Anyone up for this?

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You know what would be really helpful is if someone could make a mod similar to Quad's controls mod, but instead of the controls it shows the EGT temp gauge. Not sure why Bell decided that some of the more important gauge needed to be the smallest gauges, but there we go. Either a separate gauge mod or maybe even something as simple as a better, brighter marker for the yellow portion?

 

The gauge unless zoomed in on it is hard to read, maybe that's some of the cause for the repeated postings? I find myself having to "zoom in slow" at times, which does nothing for my hovering. With the "yellow" temp market being as small as it is it's tough to tell exactly when you're in it. Seems very easy to be either in the green or in the red.

 

Anyone up for this?

It is better to do what the pilots do. Remember the clock-position of the handles and listen and get used to the turbine sound at certain settings.

 

At typical cruise speed with safe collective settings the engine makes a distinctive sound. If you look closely at the EGT gauge it shows the needle in the green @ roughly 7 o'clock. Now remember what it looks and sounds like. Now pull more collective and listen to the change, glance at the EGT gauge and see it at 8-9 o'clock!? That is the sound you want to remember with a bad feeling and not hear for more than a few seconds.

 

After a while of listening and monitoring and getting used to normal cruise settings and sound, you can "feel" the turbine sound changing in your gut. A quick glance to the EGT gauge to confirm, what you already know should be it.

The beauty of all this analogue and simple equipment is, it really supports seat of your pants flying.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Thanks you have to select a user huey not an ai one
Yes, of course. AI uses a simplified flight model and no engine modeling at all.

You would need a PC for each AI to calculate the whole detailed flight and systems modeling to the level we have in the DCS modules. ;)

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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They didn't break anything "working fine". There simply was no Engine damage model in the Huey beyond bullet hits before. So unlike in real life, some DCS pilots flew beyond EGT 760°C for 5 hours plus, at 120-130kts with full loadout and fuel all the time.

Belsimtek introduced the engine damage modeling on explicit request of a lot of community members, that were not happy with the "indestructable" engine

Perfect example of "be careful what you wish for". Belsimtek indeed BREAK our poor Huey. I get used to current EGT limits and can fly without toasting my engine. But man, with current model under no circumstances, never ever, I could give more than about 70% of collective. This is wrong, and that why current Huey is indeed broken.

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more than about 70% of collective
Last I flew her, IIRC I could. So your post is actually more broken than the bird.

 

Not saying the Huey is OK as it is, though. But BST knows this, so we just better wait.


Edited by msalama

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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Last I flew her, IIRC I could. So your post is actually more broken than the bird

I'm currently on 11 mission of Argo campaign, flown missions 8 to 10 today, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. Upper range of collective is currently suicide mode, nothing more.


Edited by Lehmen
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Perfect example of "be careful what you wish for". Belsimtek indeed BREAK our poor Huey. I get used to current EGT limits and can fly without toasting my engine. But man, with current model under no circumstances, never ever, I could give more than about 70% of collective. This is wrong, and that why current Huey is indeed broken.

 

So from what I learned from real life Huey Pilots, the EGT limits are a bit too sensitive, but not too much. In fact the perception is the only problem is that torque should be the limiting factor.

So when it is "fixed" and you still don't learn to fly that thing thoughtfully you will damage the gearbox, rotor and engine through torque rather than EGT.

 

There actually isn't any need to have "100% collective" as the only thing you achieve is to stall the blades... Collective is changing the AoA on the blades, not the power.

 

In a plane you would not complain that you can't pull the stick back 100% without falling out of the sky either, won't you?

 

You can even pull full collective if you absolutely want to when you reduce throttle, but RPM will drop respectively.

 

The most important issue is, like in a real helicopter you need to plan and adjust fuel, loadout and performance each flight... Depending on temperature, expected heights and weight you get the required power / torque without breaking engine limitations or you should not start.

 

If you just hop into the seat take off and have fun by flying seat of the pants, you need to do this on the fly watch the gauges carefully (and not just EGT) and listen to the engine. Adjust from there and everything is fine.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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I'm using precondition, that if control element have it range, this range have to be useful, at least in some circumstances. And this is true for any other DCS module. Of course, if you start jerking the stick carelessly, it will end badly. But in certain situations you CAN have 100% input. But not collective on the Huey.

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I'm currently on 11 mission of Argo campaign, flown missions 8 to 10 today, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. Upper range of collective is currently suicide mode, nothing more.
Yep, upper range of the collective is a bad idea if you are too heavy...but you should not pull too much collective anyway, other than in emergencies or specific maneuvers for very short times.

 

As I said above, you are aware the collective controls the AoA of the rotorblades and not the "thrust" of an imaginary hover engine. If you pull too much collective the blades act like an airbrake, and the torque shreds the rotorhead and what not.

 

If you set the Governor to Emergency and adjust the engine RPM manually to keep it in the green, while adjusting collective you can better understand what is happening.

 

The moment you pull collective, the blades AoA rises. Higher AoA means more lift, but at the same time it requires more power to keep the blades spinning with the same speed. That means more throttle. The Governor (basically an Auto-Throttle) tries to adjust the RPM by feeding more fuel to the turbine, which increases the temperature of the combustion and the hot gas (Exhaust Gas Temperature), the hotter the gas inside the turbine the more the turbine blades and moving parts "suffer", until the turbine breaks.

In real life the shearing forces from the blades on the rotorshaft to the engine (torque) is more likely to rip the whole engine and rotorhead apart if you quickly pull collective than the EGT damaging the turbine, but be assured the engine won't survive that stunt either.

 

Monitoring the gauges, understanding the limits and carefully working the controls to keep everything in healthy condition is one of the major challenges when flying these old machines. Especially in combat situations where this becomes secondary and yet, any error with the limitations can kill you as easy as a bullet can.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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I'm using precondition, that if control element have it range, this range have to be useful, at least in some circumstances. And this is true for any other DCS module. Of course, if you start jerking the stick carelessly, it will end badly. But in certain situations you CAN have 100% input. But not collective on the Huey.
Try flying at 900ft or higher, switch the fuel pump switch to off (the yellow one with the red head) to simulate an engine failure and auto-rotate. EGT is no problem anymore and in the flare before touchdown you need 85-95% collective to soften the landing. If you made a bad approach you can even pull 100% as a last ditch. :D

 

Edit: I assume the precondition you did train emergency procedures and auto-rotations.


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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I'm not a pilot, but to my understanding if you are really careful with collective, you should be able to get maximum power from your engine into torque without blowing the engine. Currently - there is no way to do it. That why our Huey is broken.

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T

Edit: I assume the precondition you did train emergency procedures and auto-rotations.

I can land on autorotation, no problem at all. And you are right, it is quite releaving, because you can use collective as situation dictates, without EGT restrains.

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I'm not a pilot, but to my understanding if you are really careful with collective, you should be able to get maximum power from your engine into torque without blowing the engine. Currently - there is no way to do it. That why our Huey is broken.
That is a misunderstanding of torque and collective. Torque is the force working against the engine when you raise the AoA.

When you pull maximum Collective the torque will reach the physical stress limits of the driveshaft and rotorassembly and shred it to pieces.

 

With the collective neutral or at lower settings and the Governor off, you can open the throttle, slowly (basically what you do on start-up) and the torque transfers to the rotor, you can give full throttle and transfer all power to the rotor no problem. RPM will exceed the limits, temperatures rise and slowly the EGT will again become a problem, that is what the Governor is doing it sets the throttle so the RPM stay in the limits so the rotor is fast enough to produce lift and doesn't slow down and not open the throttle too much so the turbine does not overheat.

 

Now if you move the collective up, you basically start airbraking the rotorblades. The braking force transfers to the driveshaft and is shown as torque. Now the Governor tries to compensate the dropping RPM as the braking force slows the rotor. More force against the driveshaft and rotorblades while simultaneously overheating the engine. In reality the torque will exceed the limitations of the engine/driveshaft/rotorassembly before the EGT shreds the turbine unless outside temperatures are very high, or the air is very thin, or you fly close to the torque limits for a longer time.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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I can land on autorotation, no problem at all. And you are right, it is quite releaving, because you can use collective as situation dictates, without EGT restrains.
Than you should have used the collective axis already with more than 70% in the flare to provide the cushion effect to slow the decent before final touchdown. If you are really good (and I am still getting better at auto-rotations, but are far from perfect), you may not need more 70-75% collective to arrest the decent, but more often than not there isn't a perfect glidepath, shallow horizontal field with a perfect spot, or I just get a bit too hectic in the final phase. That is where I really do need the remaining range on the collective... ;)

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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In reality the torque will exceed the limitations of the engine/driveshaft/rotorassembly before the EGT shreds the turbine unless outside temperatures are very high, or the air is very thin, or you fly close to the torque limits for a longer time.

Exactly. But currently, EGT gauge is living it own life. And as result, you do not care about any other gauge. You concentrating only on EGT: is it in yellow already? Is it red? This alone is not right.

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Exactly. But currently, EGT gauge is living it own life. And as result, you do not care about any other gauge. You concentrating only on EGT: is it in yellow already? Is it red? This alone is not right.
I actually only casually glance at the EGT. I listen to the turbine and monitor my airspeed. When I go into a high hover I listen carefully and watch the torque and glance at the EGT. If you're not overweight it should settle in the upper green or yellow and you can easily hover for a couple minutes and that isn't doing any damage.

Picking up cargo requires calculation of total weight including cargo, as you need enough OGE hover power to lift the helo with the cargo attached.

To pick up some Cargo (I usually need two or three attempts to pick it up) you really need to be light, or at or close to sea level with moderate or cool air temperature.

 

When it's fixed we need to monitor the torque more carefully, but it won't change much with the overall performance.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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To my experience - torque is completely useless now. So are the engine sounds. You blown engine out because of EGT much faster. So, at least for me, I'm ending with monitoring only EGT.

 

 

PS But it not only that. Overall performance is far from plausible too, in my opinion. Especially if you start to compare what we can do with Huey in DCS with it actual specifications. It need fixing.


Edited by Lehmen
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To my experience - torque is completely useless now. So are the engine sounds. You blown engine out because of EGT much faster. So, at least for me, I'm ending with monitoring only EGT.
How fast do you fly typically? I mean cruise speed.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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PS But it not only that. Overall performance is far from plausible too, in my opinion. Especially if you start to compare what we can do with Huey in DCS with it actual specifications. It need fixing.

 

There isn't much discrepancy between the performance of the real world Huey and the DCS one, apart of the EGT beeing a bit too sensitive. You reach the speeds, OGE/IGE torque is reasonable close to charts and real life according to people who flew UH-1 Hueys and what we can expect from the "fix" is a couple seconds more before the torque hits the limits, compared to EGT spiking beyond the second red.

 

I said it before there is a good reason the Marines current UH-1Y "Venom" got dual-engines and a four blade rotor.

 

BTW, I don't want to prove "it isn't broken". I have the perception you expect wonders with performance by fixing the EGT issues, and may be disappointed when the torque limits will still shred the engines a bit later than now when passing the 760°C limit.


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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When loaded, about 80-90 knots on level flight. Around 60-80 with sling loads.

 

 

PS It is pointless to try to prove me that Huey is not broken right now. I know it is.

With 80-90kts I can really fly until the fuel tank is dry without any engine trouble in Nevada at none extreme temperatures.

Mountains and rising ridgelines in the northwest and west are challenging and require planning the ascent, but all manageable. Caucasus in the Mountains especially around Mt. Elbrus is difficult as hell, but I am sure it isn't a picnic trip IRL either. Biggest issue is the Engine defrost...

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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I have the perception you expect wonders with performance by fixing the EGT issues

No, I don't expect wonders. I expect it to be better than today. But yes, with careful flying, I expect to be able to squeeze more power than we are able today.

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