What is the Dora's purpose ?

Made by YoYo himself around release time.

Those graphs are not what I experience in-game against AI P-51Ds. The AI can gain energy on me no matter what I do. With boost on, I should be able to shake them in a climb, but I cannot. They just pull up behind me at will and gun me.

In the past, 1.5x and earlier, I could go into a climbing turn and bleed the AI P-51s energy down, then try to create a situation where I could dive on them. But I cannot do that at all in the Normandy instant action dogfight mission. At best, I can exactly match the AI P-51 so that neither of us is gaining while in a steady turning cycle at an oblique angle alternating between climbing/stalling/diving. But If I let off g to try to gain alt or speed, the AI instantly kill me.

Recent patching may have robbed some performance, but I had noticed a degradation against AI some time ago... maybe even back during the final 1.5xx patches? I don't fly the Fw190 much, but I am trying to become proficient enough to be competitive in multiplayer, but that isn't going to happen if I have none of the advantages I need in power/climb/acceleration to make up for the P-51's diving/energy retention abilities.

Those graphs are not what I experience in-game against AI P-51Ds. The AI can gain energy on me no matter what I do. With boost on, I should be able to shake them in a climb, but I cannot. They just pull up behind me at will and gun me.

 

In the past, 1.5x and earlier, I could go into a climbing turn and bleed the AI P-51s energy down, then try to create a situation where I could dive on them. But I cannot do that at all in the Normandy instant action dogfight mission. At best, I can exactly match the AI P-51 so that neither of us is gaining while in a steady turning cycle at an oblique angle alternating between climbing/stalling/diving. But If I let off g to try to gain alt or speed, the AI instantly kill me.

 

Recent patching may have robbed some performance, but I had noticed a degradation against AI some time ago... maybe even back during the final 1.5xx patches? I don't fly the Fw190 much, but I am trying to become proficient enough to be competitive in multiplayer, but that isn't going to happen if I have none of the advantages I need in power/climb/acceleration to make up for the P-51's diving/energy retention abilities.

AI uses different physics and does not obey certain things that a player has to obey, so comparing performance with AI is nonesense.

It isn't nonsense on a relative scale. I used to be able to beat AI before using correct tactics despite their wacky flight mode, but now I can not. So, either AI flight model performance increased or the Fw190 player flight model performance decreased. I would bet on the latter.

On the other hand with some speed built up, I can pull away from Spitfires with speed and climb to at least have a chance of escaping to re-engage on my favorable terms. I can use the same tactics to club AI P-47s like baby seals.

F190D compared to our opponents :-

Spitfire : The D-9 was better in level flight, climb and dive. It was slightly inferior in turns.

Tempest : Almost equal in level flight, a lengthy pursuit was usually fruitless. The D-9 climbed and turned better, but was inferior in a dive.

Mustang : The two aircraft were about equal in normal combat maneuvers, which was an advantage for us compared to the A-8. The Mustang was rather faster in a dive.

Thunderbolt : With the Dora-9 we had advantages in level flight, climb and turn. We were hopelessly inferior in a dive ( never try to dive from a Thunderbolt. )

Lt Ossenkop JG.26 'Schlageter'

AI uses different physics and does not obey certain things that a player has to obey, so comparing performance with AI is nonesense.

No, it doesn't. Please don't spread misinformation.

No, it doesn't. Please don't spread misinformation.

What misinformation?

AI doesn't use same flight model, clearly visible at their stall behaviour.

AI can accelerate and decelerate instantly to some degree.

AI doesn't care about overheating/undercooling the engine

AI cannot overrev engine

AI doesn't care about overusing/overstressing the engine

Or do you want to tell me comparing a human flown module with an AI flown module makes sense when they don't even share the same flight model and physics?

Yo-Yo confirmed that they have the same FM.. AI can manage energy better. You can search the forum and you'll find out.

They probably use "same" FM parameters, but not physics. Look at the stall behaviour. Either they use the SFM, or they handle stalls poorly.

They also said at some point (before yo yo said that) that if they used the PFM for AI, it would ruin your computer.

Now which one is correct? Judging by the good framerates despite lots of AI planes and their SFM like stall behaviour, I doubt they use the PFM for AI

I agree with razo+r. The AI perform tricks a realistic FM can't do. Plus, they don't seem to black out.

+1

I too agree with razo+r's comments,unfortunately the Ai in DCS is sadly ridiculous,and it's performance is a nonsense.This makes the whole concept of any realistic dogfighting within Singleplayer missions totally pointless.

When you are up against an aircraft that does'nt share the same,or even simliar flight characteristics or parameters as your aircraft,especially where it is'nt punished for over speeding or over heating the engine,and does'nt have any stall behaviour to speak of,it's just a joke.

The Ai characteristics in DCS are a joke.....and are in a dire need of a serious fix.

 

The Ai characteristics in DCS are a joke.....and are in a dire need of a serious fix.

Yes, exactly why they are capable of things that we can't do is a side issue. They just need to be fixed.

The worst thing about AI is that, AI pilot can see through his plane.

Last time i was in P-51,i was chased by AI K-4, he was on my six.

I put my plane to gentle left turn K-4 was closing to me, when i saw that K-4 starts pull lead on me i pulled a little more, so k-4 had to put significant lead on me to line up a shot, that is my turn now i know that i am out of sight for the k-4's i revers my turn with rudder help to roll faster and pull as much as i can.

I was shocked when i saw that K-4 is reversing his turn instantly w/o heaving me in the line of sight. How to fight against AI with 360 degree vision.

I also agree with Raz+r and the subsequent supporting comments. The AI behavior in DCS reminds me of stories of UFOs suddenly whisking away and about without regard to known physics. As someone who solely plays single-player, this is a huge disappointment.

Yo-Yo confirmed that they have the same FM.. AI can manage energy better. You can search the forum and you'll find out.

Yo-Yo terms were not that specific, he wrote "same FM parameters", if I remember well.

Can anyone provide a track(current Open Beta) or Tacview file of a cheating AI?

Yo-Yo confirmed that they have the same FM.. AI can manage energy better. You can search the forum and you'll find out.

I don't care if you are quoting the Lord Almighty, the AI do not fly within either laws of physics or normal parameters despite what is plugged in to their model. It took me under 5 minutes to open the very last tacview I had and find their latest insanity...

Here we have a Dora, apparently flying straight-ish climbing with his formation, doing an up and down climbing loops of 7.1G to -3G with 31+ AoA to -15 AoA with up to 39 degrees a second turn rate and if that wasn't bad enough...

he ACCELERATED through it.

Maybe this is th eLord Almighty. Impossible to perform, but not only that physically impossible to sustain those AoA movements without coming to a standstill.

There are some factors simply not modelled in the AI. One of them is how they can get all their turn rate without any airflow over the wings, another is their drag handling, they simply do not slow down going through the air, no matter what their AoA, drag is discounted.

Can anyone provide a track(current Open Beta) or Tacview file of a cheating AI?

There you go.. Two videos I've just made, one with 109vs109 and the second SPit vs Spit. All planes have 60% fuel, AI set on excellent. No UFOs there.. :)

Bf vs Bf

Spit vs Spit

server-20200708-205055.trk

server-20200708-212605.trk

I don't care if you are quoting the Lord Almighty, the AI do not fly within either laws of physics or normal parameters despite what is plugged in to their model. It took me under 5 minutes to open the very last tacview I had and find their latest insanity...

 

Here we have a Dora, apparently flying straight-ish climbing with his formation, doing an up and down climbing loops of 7.1G to -3G with 31+ AoA to -15 AoA with up to 39 degrees a second turn rate and if that wasn't bad enough...

 

he ACCELERATED through it.

 

Maybe this is th eLord Almighty. Impossible to perform, but not only that physically impossible to sustain those AoA movements without coming to a standstill.

 

There are some factors simply not modelled in the AI. One of them is how they can get all their turn rate without any airflow over the wings, another is their drag handling, they simply do not slow down going through the air, no matter what their AoA, drag is discounted.

Dora is borked at the moment..

There you go.. Two videos I've just made, one with 109vs109 and the second SPit vs Spit. All planes have 60% fuel, AI set on excellent. No UFOs there.. :)

 

Bf vs Bf

 

 

Spit vs Spit

What happens now if you, instead of countering his maneuvers, try to follow / replicate maneuvers.

If it had the same FM, should be no problem for you to keep up.

But anyway, that would be OT

I absolutely love the Dora to just fly around in, but like the FW-190A8 it doesn't seem to have any other role in DCS.

 

 

It's horribly outmatched in multiplayer. I keep hearing about people who have success as long as they fly it as an ambush\energy fighter, but never see any hard evidence of that. The "amazing" roll rate is handy if you want to amuse your opponent while he's chasing you down to kill you, or if you want to put on an airshow, but thats about it.

 

In single player you have the benefit of dot labels so you can actually see your opponents in time to set up an attack, but then the AI have UFO flight models and it's impossible to ambush them anyway. Try one of the D9 instant action missions sometime. There is nothing you can do versus the Mustang.

 

 

That leaves bomber interception, but with the sniper abilities of AI gunners it's suicide at the moment. The attrition rate for FW pilots flying versus heavy bomber formations in '44 and '45 was huge, but if it went along DCS lines the Luftwaffe would have ceased to exist in 24 hours.

 

 

Jabo maybe ? it can do that, as long as no enemy planes see you.

 

Is the FW-190's only role to provide targets for people who fly the allied planes ? Is that why they exist at all ?

The Dora has been a buggy mess and a joke of an airplane for a long time(Six years or so). Ever since the WEP was broken in an update shortly after the spit 9 was released its been a terrible plane. The engine constantly broke if WEP was used without any indication that damage was done. You would just be flying slower. You could not do any slow manuevers or the engine would blow as well. Which ment you couldn't really take fights into the vertical. Those changes/bugs ment people stopped flying the plane and those that did only used hit and run tactics.

The Dora used to be an awesome fighter. You did not have to hit and run you could stay and fight if you properly managed your energy.

I think however that a lot of these problems may have been fixed recently. I tested the Dora over the last couple of days and was able to do aerobatic manuevers and use WEP for 10 minutes at a time without engine problems. It feels kind of like a fighter again. The only negative performance difference I noticed was that its top speed at sea level is about 12knots slower, which is a bit of a bummer.

I have not had a chance to try it out in a dogfight yet because the only populated WW2 server has MW50 disabled on the German planes. :cry:

It feels kind of like a fighter again. The only negative performance difference I noticed was that its top speed at sea level is about 12knots slower, which is a bit of a bummer.

 

I've managed to reach an understanding with it after weeks of practice. I can even deal with the AI sometimes, although you have to fly in an extremely specific manner.

It's definitely 20mph too slow, I checked in Tacview.

Oh ho - that's for posting - time to revisit this aircraft.

I got it during the free fly event and never quite warmed up to because it always seemed so terribly outclassed by everything else regardless of tactics attempted.

Just tested it, and indeed the Dora seems to have lost some speed for some reason. Used to be able to hit 326 KTAS @ SL, but now it won't budge past 315 KTAS, so that's 11 knots lost for some reason.

Should be able to hit 330 kts (612 km/h):

It's possible that the Dora has a lower top speed due to secrecy considerations - you can see clearly that is a classified document ( Staatsgeheimnis ) :D