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F-5 won't fly level


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So a couple things to test:

 

1) Without trimming (ie total hand flying), can you keep the F-5 level (within +/-5 degrees and +/- 50') when in a normal flight range (say 10K, mach .6-.7) with no weather? Shoot for about a minute. If you can't then you probably need to check your controls. Real world this is MUCH easier (well in daytime) as your vestibular system will tell you if you're titling in some way and your eyes will confirm that, leading to very little need to check the instruments (no wind remember).

 

2) Once you're stable can you trim the A/C to level (within +/-5 degrees and +/- 50') in a normal flight range, with no weather and fly that way hands off for a minute? If so I think you're about as close to good as you're going to get.

 

True hands free level flight for long periods is not something that was usually designed into short range fighters back in the days of hydraulics and cables. Having absolutely 0 stick time in an F-5 (I'd sell a kidney if that was an option), I can't say if it was beautifully harmonized or slightly less so.

 

One thing I would really like to see in DCS for those of us who don't use FFB joysticks (so I'd say most of the crowd), is a button to set trim just like the KA-50 had. Is this a "realistic" feature in terms of having 1 button? No, absolutely not. However real trim is so I can relax pressure on the stick/yoke instead of having to hold it. You don't dial in trim and relax the stick, dial in, relax, etc. Getting the AC in the attitude I want, pressing a button and then being able to relax is actually pretty dang close to the actual experience of using trim.

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One thing I would really like to see in DCS for those of us who don't use FFB joysticks (so I'd say most of the crowd), is a button to set trim just like the KA-50 had. Is this a "realistic" feature in terms of having 1 button? No, absolutely not. However real trim is so I can relax pressure on the stick/yoke instead of having to hold it. You don't dial in trim and relax the stick, dial in, relax, etc. Getting the AC in the attitude I want, pressing a button and then being able to relax is actually pretty dang close to the actual experience of using trim.

 

The easiest way to help with our limited controls, if that is the main problem here?

 

Would be...

 

Looks like a lack of trim resolution to me, either in the DCS version and/or in the real one as well. The DSC F-5 would fly perfectly level IMO if trim resolution would be higher.

 

Perhaps the trim movement is accurate to how much it moves IRL. How about Adding an option for slow trim to help our controls out, as well as having the normal speed and trim resolution. Possibly the quickest and easiest help / fix. If it's not to hard, the first hit of trim (tap) could be a higher res, after .5 sec return to normal trim (hold trimming).


Edited by David OC

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The easiest way to help with our limited controls, if that is the main problem here?

 

Would be...

 

Perhaps the trim movement is accurate to how much it moves IRL. How about Adding an option for slow trim to help our controls out, as well as having the normal speed and trim resolution. Possibly the quickest and easiest help / fix. If it's not to hard, the first hit of trim (tap) could be a higher res, after .5 sec return to normal trim (hold trimming).

 

Remember real trim simply takes pressure off the stick, you literally just relax your hand/arm as you trim. There is really no way to accurately reflect that in a non-ffb stick, as the stick stays in place so you know where it is (sort of like how your gas pedal works in cruise control on most cars). You don't fly by trim in a real AC (well, okay you shouldn't but some people get in a bad habit) you fly with the stick , and use trim to reduce your fatigue from having to hold it in a certain position for a long period of time. You put the stick/yoke where it needs to be, and the trim so that it's comfortable.

 

On a non-ffb joystick when we trim it's add trim, move stick, add trim, move stick, etc. until we're back to center. If you want the experience of holding the stick in place for a bit I guess you could add a delay to a trim button, but honestly the end result is the same the stick is held in that position until your trim it some other way.

 

I get you want more trim resolution, with no time in an F-5 I can't say if that's realistic or not. What I can say is realistic, is that the trim feature should allow me to quickly and easily set the desired stick/yoke position to allow me to relax and make minimal movements of the stick to fly the profile I want (whether that's straight and level, or a 45 degree dive on a target). Real on stick/yoke power trim is super easy to use, and super intuitive. The current way trim is handled by pretty much every flight sim for non-ffb joysticks, is not. Is having a single button "accurate" in the sense I pressed and held a button for 2.5 seconds and then held it a different direction for .25 seconds to get level while not moving your stick? Well no. It sure is a lot closure to how you actually feel using powered on stick trim than the current click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick dang it too far, click the other way and so on. All the while you'er bobbing around in the air like a drunken duck.

 

There are already plenty of simplifications and "usability" enhancements to flight sims that dramatically effect combat. No ones strapping a 50 lb weight plate to you head hooked up to a magnet to simulate G's when you're using TrackIR or VR, to go to the far extreme from the get go. So why not have a little bit of usability in trim particularly since for 95% of the non -ww2 aircraft available for DCS (that is totally a guess, I didn't bother to do the mass on the non-ww2 stable of AC to see what the exact percentage are) it wouldn't change anything as they already have AP and FBW.

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It sure is a lot closure to how you actually feel using powered on stick trim than the current click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick - click - relax stick dang it too far, click the other way and so on. All the while you'er bobbing around in the air like a drunken duck.

You're doing it wrong if you relax stick after every single trim click. You should hold the trim hat and gradually relax the stick until centered. Then if there is still some nose movement you correct it by one click or two. If you do it right it's done in 2 seconds and you keep the aircraft stable through the whole process.

Summing up the thread no one knows here if the trim resolution is properly modeled (as in RL) so the discussion is futile.

As a side note most of the time I cannot trim F-15C perfectly too. But as was already said I don't need to and the OP doesn't either.

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What would be useful here - whether realistic or not is another matter - is to reduce the sensitivity of the trim hat movement, as I feel there is too much adjustment made by the slightest touch of the trim hat. I looked at the default.lua file, but couldn't see any values for this.

I use this method to reduce the sensitivity of the TDC cursor and radar elevation and that works really well.

Anyone ideas on how to do that?

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Sometimes she stays stable, most of the times not at all..

Also slight power adjustments require huge adjustment in pitch trim..

While the plane generally feels great, the trim "issue" makes it feel somewhat broken to me.. Then again, im not a reeal world pilot...

 

If the purpose of trim is not making flight easier to the pilot, what is it used for? you SHOULD be able to trim for level flight, a certain climb rate etc.. non of this is possible in the F-5..

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If the purpose of trim is not making flight easier to the pilot, what is it used for? you SHOULD be able to trim for level flight, a certain climb rate etc.. non of this is possible in the F-5..

 

The primary function of trim is not to make flight easier. Trim is required to reduce or get rid off the considerable control forces from the stick/yoke/pedals.

E.g. on old jets the required rudder force to maintain the heading in the asymmetric case can be as high as 180lbs!

You certainly don't want to keep this pressure the whole time without being able trim some or all of this force away.

 

It's just a nice additional feature if you can trim a plane for hands off flight, especially if you are flying IFR.


Edited by bbrz

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  • 2 weeks later...
Quick question...has anyone been able to trim out the F-5 to fly straight and level? I have tried using the HOTAS (:cry: X-55), the trim works beautifully however, I'm always climbing or descending. I also try to trim with the keyboard (after clearing HOTAS) with the same result. I seem to be able to trim out other A/C...any words of wisdom ??

 

I've never been able to fly the F-5E level without a lot of downward stick pressure...

 

I have to trim down as far as it will go, and only then can I fly level - still with a little less forward stick pressure. Even with full nose down elevator trim, if I hold my stick in the centered position, the F-5E will start to climb and if I don't push down, it'll go vertical and stall out... it's crazy, and has really affected my flying time with this aircraft (don't fly it much at all any more).

 

I still use a MS Force Feedback 2 stick, so maybe there's something that's not working right with that old stick. But I don't have any issues with other DCS modules re: the overdone elevator lift. If the trim range for nose down would be as large as the nose up trim, I could probably get it to the point where it would fly level without any forward stick pressure.

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I still use a MS Force Feedback 2 stick, so maybe there's something that's not working right with that old stick. But I don't have any issues with other DCS modules re: the overdone elevator lift.

Since apparently no one else experiences this problem I doubt that 'overdone' elevator lift is the problem.

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Since apparently no one else experiences this problem I doubt that 'overdone' elevator lift is the problem.

 

Well, obviously you hadn't experienced it... I was just trying to describe the issue. No worries, as I've figured out my problem thanks to Elysian Angel:

 

You could also try the "non-linear joystick mode" in Special Options. That seems to help a lot of people.

Also, making tiny throttle adjustments help for trimming out perfectly, to allow for 'hands-off' level flight.

 

Thanks Elysian Angel! Since I have a MS FFB2 stick, I had used the Special option for Joystick Mode of: "Displaced Neutral (FFB)", and never thought about it again. I changed it to "Nonlinear "mode, and it made a huge difference! Now, the jet doesn't pull up automatically all the time, I can actually use the normal trim range and it flies level! I'm glad I re-read through this thread :).

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